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Print Page Chess Computer Community
    General Category => Discussions about Chess Computers => Message started by: -anavaan- on October  7, 2008, 09:38AM
	

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Title: Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: -anavaan- on October 7, 2008, 09:38AM

Hello everyone!

My first post! Be gentle! ;)
Okay, here's my problem: I just bought a "new" Mephisto Exclusive Senator from a local seller. I was very lucky to get one, because, as you all know, it hasn't been available for some years. Ok, that wasn't the problem, but this is: I played some games against it and I was surprised to see, that it quite easily let the opponent (a test game against an old computer program running on my PC) draw the game with perpetual check in a winning position! It didn't happen only once. Another game was also ended in the same way! I seriously believe, after what I have seen, that there is some kind of program bug in its calculating program. Have you had the same kind of problems with your Senator? ???


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Overtom on October 7, 2008, 05:31PM

Hi Anavaan,

Welcome to the board!

I wonder if it has anything to do with the name. Another Senator chess computer played a game and had four pawns, a knight, a bishop, a rook and a queen more than his opponent. Ans still the games was drawn :o ;D

That senator looked like this:



The story can be found at http://overtom.nl/weblog/03APR08.html

But I understand your senator is somewhat stronger ...

Best regards,

tom


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Robert Weck on October 8, 2008, 12:45AM

Hi,

[quote author=-anavaan- link=board=1;threadid=1679;start=0#msg11557 date=1223397499]
My first post! Be gentle! ;)
[/QUOTE]
Don't worry! Nobody has been eaten here alive! (first we slaughter all newcomers! ;))

The Senator repetition draw bug has been discussed here some years ago:
http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=643;start=0 (http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=643;start=0)

So you are not alone...


best regards,
Robert
[/quote]


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: -anavaan- on October 8, 2008, 07:48AM

[quote][quote author=Robert Weck link=board=1;threadid=1679;start=0#msg11559 date=1223451900]
The Senator repetition draw bug has been discussed here some years ago:
http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=643;start=0 (http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=643;start=0)

So you are not alone...

[/quote]
[/quote]

Thanks, Robert!

I did some homework before I bought this Senator reading a lot of messages, but obviously, not enough. Well, would have I bought it, if I had known about its bug? Hard to say. Maybe not. But anyways, it plays quite good chess and the Exclusive board is just fantastic.
So, I think I'll visit eBay more often now to find a second module for my Mephisto. Although it's nice to have a half point every now and then. ;)

Best regards
-anavaan-


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: -anavaan- on October 8, 2008, 07:58AM

[quote author=Overtom link=board=1;threadid=1679;start=0#msg11558 date=1223425886]
Hi Anavaan,

Welcome to the board!

I wonder if it has anything to do with the name. Another Senator chess computer played a game and had four pawns, a knight, a bishop, a rook and a queen more than his opponent. Ans still the games was drawn :o ;D

But I understand your senator is somewhat stronger ...

Best regards,

tom
[/quote]

Thanks, Tom!

I needed that! Well, it isn't the end of the world to win some half points from a wooden toy! ;D

Best regards,
-anavaan-


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Mike Watters on October 8, 2008, 03:05PM

That is a cl(oops!)ic early chess computer game Tom. When I first read your weblog I remember yelling out at the Senator for **** sake move your queen.

All the best
Mike


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: spacious_mind on October 9, 2008, 05:21PM


on 1223503530, Mike Watters wrote:

That is a cl(oops!)ic early chess computer game Tom. When I first read your weblog I remember yelling out at the Senator for **** sake move your queen.

All the best
Mike


Hi Tom/Mike,

(oops!)uming that SciSys Executive is identical to the Scisys Senator then sometimes they do find a way to win ;D



{SciSys Executive Chess has no book} 1. Nc3 {Novag Alto out of book} Nc6 2. Nf3
d5 3. e4 d4 4. Nd5 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ exf6 6. Bc4 Be6 7. Bxe6 fxe6 8. O-O Bc5 9. Qe2
O-O 10. Qb5 Bb6 11. e5 fxe5 12. Nxe5 a6 13. Qe2 Qd5 14. Nxc6 Qxc6 15. d3 Rad8
16. Bg5 Rd7 17. Rfe1 h6 18. Bh4 Re8 19. a4 e5 20. b4 Qe6 21. f4 a5 22. Qf3 axb4
23. Rxe5 Qf7 24. Rxe8+ Qxe8 25. a5 Qa8 26. a6 c6 27. Ra4 bxa6 28. Rxb4 Ba7 29.
f5 a5 30. Rb5 g5 31. fxg6 a4 32. Bf6 a3 33. Ra5 Qf8 34. Qxc6 Qd6 35. Qc8+ Rd8
36. Qxd8+ Qxd8 37. Bxd8 Bb8 38. Bb6 Bf4 39. Bxd4 Bd6 40. Ra8+ Bf8 41. g7 Kh7
42. gxf8=Q h5 43. Qg7# 1-0

That game was played on Level 3.

All the best

Nick


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Overtom on October 10, 2008, 02:30PM

[quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=1679;start=0#msg11563 date=1223503530]
That is a cl(oops!)ic early chess computer game Tom. When I first read your weblog I remember yelling out at the Senator for **** sake move your queen.

All the best
Mike
[/quote]
Hello Mike,

Yes I vividly remember your exasperation at witnessing Senator's indecisiveness.

Originally I thought if it was this thread (http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1570) that you were referring to. But I can't find back your colourful words.

By the way, as you predicted, the Overtom Museum (http://overtom.nl/chescom/Engintro.html#aanwinsten) did indeed receive its 400th exhibit this week. Unfortunately, it was not a very spectacular acquisition, a black version of Mephisto Beach, a computer that the museum already had in bloodier colours.

The number 399 was less inconspicuous, Conchess Amb(oops!)ador (http://overtom.nl/chescom/EngConchAmb.html), in good working order, for which Mrs Overtom had to drive me all the way to the swampiest parts of the Low Lands.

There will be no official celebration, but anyone who wants to congratulate the curator will be treated to wine and/or brandy.

With celebratory regards,

tom


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Steve B on October 12, 2008, 03:56AM


Quote:
[quote author=Overtom]
The number 399 was less inconspicuous, Conchess Amb(oops!)ador (http://overtom.nl/chescom/EngConchAmb.html), in good working order, for which Mrs Overtom had to drive me all the way to the swampiest parts of the Low Lands.


Hi Tom
read your blog on the Amb(oops!)ador
actually Conchess did release modules for the second slot in their boards
they were opening book (Library ) modules
the L0,L16 and Master C6 modules
These modules were used in conjunction with several of the Conchess modules..principally the T6 and T8

here is a photo of the L0 book module locked and loaded(module appears on the left marked with an L:


Double Barrelled Regards
Steve


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Overtom on October 12, 2008, 02:58PM

[quote author=Steve B link=board=1;threadid=1679;start=0#msg11580 date=1223809008]
[quote][quote author=Overtom]
The number 399 was less inconspicuous, Conchess Amb(oops!)ador (http://overtom.nl/chescom/EngConchAmb.html), in good working order, for which Mrs Overtom had to drive me all the way to the swampiest parts of the Low Lands.
[/quote]

Hi Tom
read your blog on the Amb(oops!)ador
actually Conchess did release modules for the second slot in their boards
they were opening book (Library ) modules
the L0,L16 and Master C6 modules
These modules were used in conjunction with several of the Conchess modules..principally the T6 and T8

here is a photo of the L0 book module locked and loaded(module appears on the left marked with an L:


Double Barrelled Regards
Steve
[/quote]
Thanks, Steve, the info at the museum (http://overtom.nl/chescom/Engintro.html) has been updated.

One question which I'm rather curious about: according to Arno Kreuzberg (http://www.elpeon.com/index.php?mod=tipp), chess computers should be used at least once a year in order to keep the electrolytical capacitors in good order. I find his advice not easy to follow.

I understand that you also have a few computers. What do you think about Arno's advice?

With best regards,

tom


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Steve B on October 12, 2008, 03:28PM


on 1223848694, Overtom wrote:

One question which I'm rather curious about: according to Arno Kreuzberg (http://www.elpeon.com/index.php?mod=tipp), chess computers should be used at least once a year in order to keep the electrolytical capacitors in good order. I find his advice not easy to follow.

I understand that you also have a few computers. What do you think about Arno's advice?

With best regards,

tom


While i agree the advice is sound.. it is hard to do when a collection reaches enormous proportions like yours
you have more computers in your collection then the days in a year!

so we must modify the advise and say..

for collections of less than 100 schachcomputers:
"chess computers should be used at least once a year in order to keep the electrolytical capacitors in good order
for collections of greater then 100 schachcomputers:
"chess computers should be used when ever at least once a decade in order to keep the electrolytical capacitors in good order"

Modifying Regards
Steve





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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Overtom on October 14, 2008, 07:02AM

[quote author=Steve B link=board=1;threadid=1679;start=0#msg11585 date=1223850522]
While i agree the advice is sound.. it is hard to do when a collection reaches enormous proportions like yours
you have more computers in your collection then the days in a year!

so we must modify the advise and say..

for collections of less than 100 schachcomputers:
"chess computers should be used at least once a year in order to keep the electrolytical capacitors in good order
for collections of greater then 100 schachcomputers:
"chess computers should be used when ever at least once a decade in order to keep the electrolytical capacitors in good order"

Modifying Regards
Steve

[/quote]
Thanks, Steve!

To be honest, I had hoped you'd come up with a solution like some kind of microwave that could refresh the electrolytic capacitors, or some other contraption with artificial - albeit adjustable - hands that could play random games with the computers.

Well, last night I got another one from the shelves as part of continuous efforts to preserve the capacitors of the collection.

With why-did-I-never-think-of-collecting-stamps regards,

tom


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: hondo on October 14, 2008, 08:04PM

I have been following the comments about using chess games in order to "refresh the capacitors"... there is no doubt that electrolytic capacitors given enough time and heat etc. will dry out and need to be replaced in circuit with another. For my own education is there any chance you could let me in on where I might read the article ( in English ) that indicates that useage of a capacitor will prevent or forstall the eventual drying out process. Plese forgive my ignorance but this is something that I never heard before and I would like to read the technical data/ or article that supports this notion. Thanks....... Hondo


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Overtom on October 15, 2008, 01:23AM

[quote author=hondo link=board=1;threadid=1679;start=0#msg11592 date=1224039844]
I have been following the comments about using chess games in order to "refresh the capacitors"... there is no doubt that electrolytic capacitors given enough time and heat etc. will dry out and need to be replaced in circuit with another. For my own education is there any chance you could let me in on where I might read the article ( in English ) that indicates that useage of a capacitor will prevent or forstall the eventual drying out process. Plese forgive my ignorance but this is something that I never heard before and I would like to read the technical data/ or article that supports this notion. Thanks....... Hondo
[/quote]
Hi Hondo,

This is not something that was dreamt up by any member of this forum, but an advice (http://www.elpeon.com/index.php?mod=tipp) by Arno Kreuzberg, who has repaired hundreds of chess computers. We may safely (oops!)ume Arno knows what he's talking about. But to be honest, I never took the trouble to verify his findings.

Best regards,

tom


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: hondo on October 15, 2008, 08:12AM

HI Tom....thanks for responding back.... I understand and respect your faith and trust in Arno and I didn't mean to question that...it was simply an attempt to better understand what was being suggested as a preventive measure. I have been in electronics as a repair person and have owned my own shop for many years and the advice given was interesting. Again please accept my apologies if I offended anyone.
Hondo


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Overtom on October 15, 2008, 09:57AM

Hi Hondo,

I don't feel offended, so no need for apologies, Hondo ;) But I don't know enough about electrical components to say anything with any authority about electrical components.

I thought electrolytical capacitors had a positive and negative side. So I suppose if you reverse plus and minus, some chemical action wil damage the capacitor. A circuit that is not used might generate weak currents. So I can imagine that these weak currents can damage the capacitor very slowly, which might be the damage Arno suggests. I can also imagine that a stronger current of the right polarity can undo the damage done by the above-mentioned weak currents - as long as the capacitor has not been turned into a conductor, for then it's too late.

This is what I think may be the reasoning behind Arno's advice, but again, I'm no expert in this field, so I could be completely wrong.

But maybe Google can prove or disprove this theory ;)

With best regards,

tom


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: hondo on October 15, 2008, 11:02AM

Hi Tom,
You are absolutely correct.... they do have a positive side ( the anode ) and the negative (cathode) side and again you are correct....reverse the polarity in circuit and you will most likely destroy the cap. Almost all electrolytics depend on internal moisture for their action even though they may be called " dry". With regard to our discussion electrolytic caps have a dielectric film w/in and their is a school of thought ( so to say ) that this film will dissolve if the capacitor is idle and will reform when power is applied. For the most part this was in reference to high voltage high current draw large caps...and was meant to address and prevent older power supplies that were shut down for extended periods of time....from having these large caps dry out. I don't think the same applies for our chess games and the small caps w/in them. A lot of heat and age in and of itself will affect caps and can cause leakage and a change in value. But I am not sure it is worth the time and effort to worry about this as it will be many yrs. before that becomes a relevent issue for most games and small electronic devices. Then you just replace the cap w/ the same one and start over. As you...I am also no expert and this has been only my humble opinion.
Best regards to all...... Hondo


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Overtom on October 15, 2008, 12:29PM

Well, Hondo, I'm glad my theory sounds plausible to ears that are used to technical ideas.

As to the replacing of old capacitors, I could show you pictures of computers in the museum whose capacitors are oozing unpleasant looking fluids. I'm as good as sure that I should replace these components, but being non-technical I tend to have nightmares about having to get them out and solder new ones in on my own :(

Best regards,

tom


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: hondo on October 15, 2008, 12:49PM

Tom...without trying to be an "alarmist" the consequence of NOT replacing the "oozing" cap. might be that the content of the cap. will corrode the circuit board beyond repair and you then have a useless game. To do nothing is sometimes worse than doing something! Most circuit board have caps marked w/ a + or a - to denote which leg of the cap goes where. With that bit of knowledge you now have a better than a 50% chance of getting placement right if you observe the polarity marked on the cap. as well as marked on the circuit board. One other caveat...please make sure the values are the same on the replacement cap and the voltage stated is at least the same if not higher then what was on the old cap. For what my help might be worth....I would be glad to TRY to answer a question if it's w/in the scope of my limited knowledge.

Regards and good luck.....Hondo


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: spacious_mind on October 15, 2008, 04:51PM

Hi Hondo,

Wow where are you? If you are in the States then I am already tempted to send you a couple of my faulty computers to repair :)

Best regards

Nick


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: hondo on October 15, 2008, 05:16PM

Hi NIck.... I appreciate your kind offer to send me work...LOL...however I have a spouse who has me booked solid and I try to go fishing every spare moment I have. There are many well read and knowledgeable people on this site. I have learned much here and I have appreciated the information I gleaned from other well informed people. Take care and regards........ Hondo


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: sderyke2002 on October 16, 2008, 08:49AM


on 1224098977, Overtom wrote:

... but being non-technical I tend to have nightmares about having to get them out and solder new ones in on my own :(


Tom,

Soldering is not that tough if you are careful and observe one simple rule - Cleanliness!!!

At one time I was certified by NASA in mirco solder repair and I can tell you that if you start with a clean solder site (in other words clean it with a stiff brush and alcohol) and a clean soldering iron (in other words the tip is flat and has a thin coat of shiny solder) then you should get quick heat transfer, which will make easy and QUICK removal of the solder and the component from the board - which will in turn limit the chance for damage to the board, the runs or the component. And of course the same goes for the installation of the replacement part.

So first clean the board where you are going to be de-soldering.

Next quench the soldering iron by rubbing the hot tip over a wet sponge or cloth to wipe away any dull slag and leave a bright conductive tip.

Then just make sure you apply the iron such that it is in contact as much as possible with both the leg of the component which sticks through the hole and the round pad of the run itself at the same time to heat them evenly. Then watch closely and within a couple seconds the solder joint should go shiny (instead of dull silver) and then right to liquid at which time it can be sucked up with a solder sucker (typically one of those rubber balls and teflon tips). Once most of the solder is gone you can reheat the pad and component and pull the leg out from the other side. Repeat the process for the other leg or legs of the component and you are half way done.

Next clean the solder site and quench the tip again.

Then put you replacement device in so that each leg only sticks about an eighth of an inch through the hole and touch the solder iron to each leg to form a temporary stick bond with the remnant solder on the pad - just to hold it in place. Then go back to one of the two legs and apply heat to the leg and pad and then touch the solder wire to the opposite side of the pad to let the heat melt it and draw it toward the soldering iron. You should only put enough solder on the joint so as to form a concave slope up the wire from the edge of the pad. Most people use far too much solder.

Finally clean the solder join one last time to remove any flux which did not burn off. Left over flux can corrode joint.

Hope this helps anyone who may have an interest in soldering.


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: hondo on October 16, 2008, 09:17AM

Hi Sderyke ..... if I may add to your great post I would suggest using a controlled heat (25 watts or there about) soldering gun and possibly one made by a Co. called ISO TIP that makes portable low heat solder guns w/ several types of exchangeable/removable tips . The only other alternative to soldering/desoldering I would offer....would be the use of a solder wick. This is a braided copper solder absorbent medium thats placed over the solder joint you wish to remove and its directly heated.. It's easy and leaves an area now clean and ready to be resoldered.

Hondo


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: sderyke2002 on October 17, 2008, 05:34AM

Great points - variable heat guns are great but a bit more expensive and often come in the gun form instead of a rod shape and I find the gun to be clumsy if you need to get into tight spots.

Solder wicks are also terrific once you have played with them a bit to get used to them. In using them the best approach is to heat the wick at the same time you are heating both the post and the pad, otherwise they sometimes stick to the pad rather than pull the solder away. So before you use one to remove something the first time, find some old board to practice on so you can heat everything quickly and efficiently. Get in and get out quickly is the key to protecting the board and the component.

I was lucky enough to have a motorized vacuum solder sucker built right into the soldering rod I used for work. I think it works best of all, but of course is much more expensive.


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: hondo on October 17, 2008, 11:05AM

You are right on with everything you have suggested and have said it better than I.... Now lets see if Tom has the "courage" to venture forth and try to save/preserve his games by replacing the "oozing capacitors ". As I see it he has nothing to lose (based on if nothing is done soon he loses by default) and he has an excellent chance of coming out on top of this. Allow me please to digress ...LOL... I believe it was FDR who once said "you have nothing to fear but fear itself".


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Title: Re:Senator likes to draw?!
Post by: Overtom on October 18, 2008, 08:51AM

Thanks for the good advice, but I'm afraid tom doesn't have the courage nor the skills to venture on such an undertaking. I asked my hardware dealer, who happens to be an ex-student of the tech where I used to teach and he didn't object. So I'd better leave it to him. He'll probably do it in a few days.

The computer concerned is the Chess Champion mk 5:



It does play, but the LCD screen is very hard to discern. But I'm not even sure that is caused by the leaking capacitors.

Best regards,

tom



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