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Print Page Chess Computer Community
    General Category => Discussions about Chess Computers => Message started by: Mike Watters on June 18, 2005, 01:23AM
	

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Title: Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 18, 2005, 01:23AM

The latest installment of the man versus machine saga is to be played out at Wembley, UK this coming week.



I shall be going to see it on either Wednesday or Thursday. And with the help of Pocket Fritz 2 I might even understand the easy bits of the game. I have thrown down a challenge to Hydra and registered for a game. If selected and I beat Hydra ::) I win Ģ5000.

Now which chess computer shall I buy with the money. ???

Mike


PS According to legend the stench from Hydra's breath was enough to kill man or beast. :-\


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Endspielgott on June 18, 2005, 02:04AM

Mike,

winning will not be easy. As I recall the Hydra has got several heads...does this mean youīll have to play several games simultaneously ???

Anyway 5000 british bucks...you should go for a R40!

Christian


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Ismenio on June 20, 2005, 05:48PM

I want to see Mike's report on this. As for me, being that I'm already crazy and that ChessBase did send me tickets for Kasim vs the Accoona Toolbar, I'm driving all the way to NYC right now! :o I negotiated a day-off to take care of somethings so... see you all when I come back!!

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2392
http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2415

Ismenio


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 20, 2005, 11:28PM

Good luck with your trip Ismenio.

Christian I haven't heard from the Hydra match organisers so I guess I have been unlucky with the draw to play Hydra. Shame. ::)


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Endspielgott on June 21, 2005, 01:44AM

[quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2558 date=1119335332]
Christian I haven't heard from the Hydra match organisers so I guess I have been unlucky with the draw to play Hydra. Shame. ::)
[/quote]

Mike,

thatīs really sad...but even with 5000 pounds there will be no hope getting an R40...simply because those guys who own one do not care much for money...

Maybe itīs possible to upgrade the R30īs? The additional memory for the hash tables should not pose a big problem. And the higher clock speed? Should be managable also....

Christian :o


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 21, 2005, 02:59AM

[quote]Mike,

thatīs really sad...but even with 5000 pounds there will be no hope getting an R40...simply because those guys who own one do not care much for money...

Maybe itīs possible to upgrade the R30īs? The additional memory for the hash tables should not pose a big problem. And the higher clock speed? Should be managable also....

Christian :o
[/quote]
I agree Christian those guys with R40s will only swap them for even more unobtainable chess computers. :(
Ģ5000 is just like Monopoly money to them.

I have drawn the ventiliation slots on my R30 and I am just about to get the hammer and chisel from the garage. There is hardly any Elo difference between a R30 and R40 so I may not bother with the extra memory and clock speed, just the fan and vents. ;D Perhaps someone will do an Eprom for me which comes up with the R40 message on startup.

I am going to the Hydra match tomorrow. The first match is on Chessfm 3pm BST start (British Summer Time). Go Mickey !!!!

Mike


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Endspielgott on June 21, 2005, 05:09AM

[quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2565 date=1119347940]


I have drawn the ventiliation slots on my R30 and I am just about to get the hammer and chisel from the garage. Perhaps someone will do an Eprom for me which comes up with the R40 message on startup.

I am going to the Hydra match tomorrow. The first match is on Chessfm 3pm BST start (British Summer Time). Go Mickey !!!!

Mike
[/quote]

Mike,

for doing this youīll need a sledge hammer with a clock speed of 40 MHz ;D

Anyway: I am not very fond of British soccer teams (Bayern München!!!) but in this case I am your opinion:

GOMICKEYGO

Christian


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 21, 2005, 03:13PM

Well I hope Mickey does better tomorrow or I may have to come to his aid. :-[

Hydra - Adams Game 1
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. O-O Be7 8. Re1 Bg4 9. c3 f5 10. Qb3 O-O 11. Nbd2 Na5 12. Qc2 Nc6 13. b4 a6 14. Rb1 Bd6 15. h3 Bh5 16. b5 Na5 17. c4 dxc4 18. Nxc4 Nxc4 19. Bxc4+ Kh8 20. bxa6 bxa6 21. Ne5 c5 22. Bd5 Rc8 23. Be6 Rc7 24. Bxf5 Bxe5 25. dxe5 Rxf5 26. Qxe4 Bg6 27. Rb6 Rf8 28. Qe3 Rcf7 29. Rd6 Qa5 30. e6 Re7 31. Ba3 Rfe8 32. Bxc5 Qxa2 33. Rd2 1-0

at 23 Be6 .... Pocket Fritz goes cxd4 and sees black as equal eg 24 Qxc8 Qa5 25 Qxf8 Bxf8

the move Mickey plays 23.....Rc7 leads to the loss of a pawn with apparently no compensation. Not a situation to be in against Hydra.

Mike


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Robert Weck on June 22, 2005, 06:28AM

[quote]
thatīs really sad...but even with 5000 pounds there will be no hope getting an R40...simply because those guys who own one do not care much for money...

Maybe itīs possible to upgrade the R30īs? The additional memory for the hash tables should not pose a big problem. And the higher clock speed? Should be managable also....

Christian :o
[/quote]
Ruud Martin wrote in Kurt's forum that he's working on a R400 (10 times faster than the original!)

And there was no smiley...


Robert


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Endspielgott on June 22, 2005, 01:46PM

[quote author=Robert Weck link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2597 date=1119446921]
Ruud Martin wrote in Kurt's forum that he's working on a R400 (10 times faster than the original!)

And there was no smiley...


[/quote]

Robert,

I read this too...well we should not underestimate Ruud..we both know perfectly well what he is able to do.

And the King with 400Mhz... 8)

But: this will be a computer one can only loose against...do we really need this?

Christian


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 22, 2005, 04:07PM

Well things went OK for Michael Adams today, with a hard fought draw.

Just got back from a gruelling one hour drive from Wembley, Ismenio. ;D

Not a particularly well attended event, no doubt there were more people there yesterday. Only 30 or so, most of the time, today. The event is well presented with excellent commentary via headphones. The commentators were UK Grandmasters Stuart Conquest, Jon Speelman and Julian Hodgson plus Christopher Lutz, the German GM who is the chess expert on the Hydra team.

Playing with white Mickey had the edge out of the opening well into the middle game. The GMs still liked his position when Lutz told them that Hydras evaluation had reached plus 1.00. They began to waiver and after a few more moves Mickey was clinging on, without apparently doing anything wrong.

Attending the event you got a real feeling that Hydra is a relentless opponent that would grind down any human opponent. Its game seemed totally without error and some of the moves were surprisingly subtle, increasing the pressure all of the time. Chrilly Donninger, the programmer, was there a few seats down from me getting a little agitated when the draw offers were being made, by which time Hydra was the exchange up but making no further progress. Mickey said he thought that offering up the exchange and setting up a fortress was the best way of bringing the game to an end.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 e6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Qc7 6. g3 a6 7. Bg2 d6 8. Nxc6 bxc6 9. O-O Nf6 10. Na4 e5 11. c4 Be7 12. Be3 Be6 13. Rc1 O-O 14. b3 Qb7 15. Qe2 Rfe8 16. h3 Rab8 17. Rfd1 Bf8 18. Kh2 h6 19. Rc2 Be7 20. Bc1 Qc7 21. Bb2 Nd7 22. Bc3 Nf8 23. Qe3 c5 24. Bb2 Bd7 25. Nc3 Ne6 26. Nd5 Qd8 27. f4 Nd4 28. Rf2 Bc6 29. fxe5 dxe5 30. Bxd4 cxd4 31. Qf3 Rf8 32. Qh5 f6 33. h4 Be8 34. Qf3 Bf7 35. Bh3 Rb7 36. h5 a5 37. Kg2 Qe8 38. Bg4 Bc5 39. Rh1 Qc6 40. Rb2 Rfb8 41. Bf5 Kh8 42. Rhb1 Qe8 43. g4 Qc6 44. Qd3 Bg8 45. Qd1 Qa6 46. Rd2 a4 47. Rdb2 Qa8 48. Kh2 Bf7 49. Kg2 Bf8 50. Kh2 Be8 51. b4 a3 52. Rb3 Ba4 53. b5 Qa7 54. Kg2 Qc5 55. Qd3 Bxb3 56. Qxb3 Ra8 57. Rd1 Qd6 58. Rc1 Qb8 59. Kf3 Bd6 60. Ke2 Bc5 61. Kd3 Qa7 62. Rb1 Qa5 63. Qc2 Qd8 64. Rh1 Qd6 65. Qb3 Re8 1/2 - 1/2

Poor old Mickey having to face this opponent four more times with only one rest day. :(



Mike


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Ismenio on June 22, 2005, 06:11PM

Thanks for that report Mike! Much better than mine!
Also, I liked that you had headphones to listen to the commentaries! Great idea!
So you were in the same room where the game was being played?

What can you tell about the audience? I though it was interesting to see such a diverse audience in Times Square. We had kids, some more older, experienced folks and a lot of different people in between.

As for the driving... no fair! >:(
;D

Ismenio


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 23, 2005, 05:27AM

[quote]What can you tell about the audience? I thought it was interesting to see such a diverse audience in Times Square. We had kids, some more older, experienced folks and a lot of different people in between.

Ismenio
[/quote]Ismenio

Your Accoona event sounds and looked like a thoroughly enjoyable event. Thanks for the pictures. So Rustam Kasimdzhanov has a twin brother? ???

Michael Adams v Hydra is deadly serious stuff, I didn't realise how serious until I got there. I have been to a few big tournaments in London in the 1980/90s between the top players but there was an atmosphere of a sporting contest at those. This was more Machine eats Man. The audience were chess players and press all watching intently in virtually complete silence. All very different from your chess event but enjoyable in its way.

Mickey approached the game with an air of grim determination. He only left the board for 2 minutes that I saw and was otherwise calculating non stop for the 6 hours the game lasted. In the question and answer session afterwards he said he had chosen the time regime to give himself the maximum time available in a game that has to be finished in one day. 100 mins for 40 moves plus 30 secs a move etc. Obviously the quicker the game the bigger the advantage to Hydra.

One comment by Julian Hodgson gave me food for thought. He was asked in a jovial manner how he thought he would fare against Hydra? His reply was that in a 6 game match he would lose all 6. In all seriousness he explained that you needed to be a Super GM to stand a chance of a draw against a computer of this strength. Perhaps only a player in the top 10 or 20 in the world. Hodgson is still rated over 2600 Elo and was 2640 at his best.

It made me think that contests like this, at the top level, will soon be a thing of the past. When I first got interested in computer chess David Levy was challenging programmers to produce a program which could beat him, and winning all of the bets that were put up. Now we are reaching the point where any match between a human and the strongest computer will be a foregone conclusion and will attract little interest or sponsorship. Nobody is going to put up big money for a match against a second cl(oops!) computer. It will be a triumph of mans genius and determination that chess computers have reached this point but in my opinion a little sad as well.

Which probably explains a bit why I prefer the Oldies. :)

Mike


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Ismenio on June 23, 2005, 07:39PM

I think I know what you mean Mike. Sometimes I even wonder about the psychology of this whole thing. Imagine what the expectation must be. No pressure here, you just have a good portion of the planet watching you playing against a machine!
At the same time, there are the programmers and those involved in developing the technology that made it possible for computers to really challenge us.

I think a lot can be said here even going beyond a game of chess.

Ismenio



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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 23, 2005, 11:35PM

When all is said and done Ismenio you have to admit one thing?



Spocks chess set is beginning to look a bit rickety. :(

Mike


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Endspielgott on June 24, 2005, 04:26AM

[quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2616 date=1119529672]


One comment by Julian Hodgson gave me food for thought. He was asked in a jovial manner how he thought he would fare against Hydra? His reply was that in a 6 game match he would lose all 6. In all seriousness he explained that you needed to be a Super GM to stand a chance of a draw against a computer of this strength. Perhaps only a player in the top 10 or 20 in the world. Hodgson is still rated over 2600 Elo and was 2640 at his best.

[/quote]

Mike,

Hodgson is a strong player, but he is playing somewhat strange...he is certainly not a "book player"...so he is right in his judgement of his chances against the machine...

But I like his style, he produces very interesting games.

I faced him once some 10 years ago (first round match of an open), and he teared me apart (no wonder-500Elo difference). But he was gentle during the analysis after ;)

Christian


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Dick Schneiders on June 24, 2005, 05:23AM

[quote author=Endspielgott link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2627 date=1119612408]

Mike,

Hodgson is a strong player, but he is playing somewhat strange...he is certainly not a "book player"...so he is right in his judgement of his chances against the machine...

But I like his style, he produces very interesting games.

I faced him once some 10 years ago (first round match of an open), and he teared me apart (no wonder-500Elo difference). But he was gentle during the analysis after ;)

Christian
[/quote]

Christian,

I have been under the impression that the best approach in beating any chess computer was to play "non-book" chess. Play good moves, but get the computer out of a "comfort" zone very early in the opening.

Am I mistaken? I certainly am not in any position to question what you say about anything chess related, but I have seen this mentioned several times in various forums.

My real interest in finding out the answer is so that I can finally win a game against one of my Fidelity CC1's! :-[

Dick Schneiders


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 24, 2005, 05:53AM

[quote]Mike,

Hodgson is a strong player, but he is playing somewhat strange...he is certainly not a "book player"...so he is right in his judgement of his chances against the machine...

But I like his style, he produces very interesting games.

I faced him once some 10 years ago (first round match of an open), and he teared me apart (no wonder-500Elo difference). But he was gentle during the analysis after ;)

Christian
[/quote]Christian

You are right about Hodgson not being the sort of player at his best against a computer. Hydra though is probably over 2900 Elo now and its developers stated target is to surp(oops!) 3000 Elo + by the end of 2005.

One interesting point made by both Ulf Lorenz and Christopher Lutz was that they have deliberately restricted the opening book to a maximum of 10 moves. Their reasoning is that relying on Grandmaster chess to go deeper down lines actually reduces the strength of Hydra. Hydra is more likely to handle any resulting position better than a GM in their opinion, at least as far as Hydra's characteristics are concerned. They also believe that they are uncovering better moves than established theory. Well that is what they said.

The message that comes across from them sounds very confident, if a little arrogant.

8 lucky(?) souls are playing Hydra today. Apparently I was one of 200 who registered for a game. Hydra escapes again. :P

Mike




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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Endspielgott on June 24, 2005, 06:35AM

[quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2630 date=1119617628]

The message that comes across from them sounds very confident, if a little arrogant.

[/quote]

Mike,

a shame that Kasparov retired...he would for sure be able to rattle their arrogant cages somewhat ;)

As would you have done of course if you had been chosen ;D

Lucky Hydra regards,

Christian


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Ismenio on June 24, 2005, 03:17PM

I hope this prediction from ChessBase doesn't come true ;)


The Future:

2005: Leading GM loses to Hydra
2007: Leading GM loses to his Pocket PC
2009: Leading GM loses to his mobile phone, which plays a rude ringtone every time he makes a mistake.
2011: Leading GM loses to his son's LEGO toy.






http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2469

Ismenio


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 24, 2005, 04:19PM

[quote author=Ismenio link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2635 date=1119651427]
I hope this prediction from ChessBase doesn't come true ;)


The Future:

2005: Leading GM loses to Hydra
2007: Leading GM loses to his Pocket PC
2009: Leading GM loses to his mobile phone, which plays a rude ringtone every time he makes a mistake.
2011: Leading GM loses to his son's LEGO toy.



Ismenio
[/quote]Ismenio

Apparently this prediction comes from John Nunn, one of the strongest English GMs of his day, and once in the world top ten players. A brilliant mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nunn

I think it just about sums it up. Many commentators are attributing Adams match situation to a combination of errors, tiredness, choosing the wrong openings, poor preparation and various other excuses. I very much doubt if Mickey would use any such reasoning. It is just a case that a 2750 Elo player is getting a beating from a 2900-2950 Elo player, and exactly the same fate would await any of the worlds top ten, with the possible exception of Kasparov.

Hydra is now much faster and stronger than it was just a year ago and there are further improvements planned.

John Nunn is making a joke of it but he is just confirming that the Machine has overtaken Man and is now disappearing into the distance.

2008 Leading GM loses to Ismenios wrist watch, on time. ;D

All the best
Mike




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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Ismenio on June 24, 2005, 04:22PM

There’s good reading on their official site as well.
http://tournament.hydrachess.com/faq.php

This, for example, is from their FAQ page:

Can you say something about the Hydra-chess-evaluation?

Basically it is a dynamic evaluation. Dynamic evaluation means: An extended move generator is called for both sides. One can calculate from this information simple things like mobility (number of legal moves for each side), but also more involved ones like king-attack, pinned pieces, center control... There are of course some terms for pawn-structure and p(oops!)ed pawn. But the dynamic part is the most important one. Dynamic information is expensive to calculate in software, it is relative cheap/fast in hardware. The Hydra-FPGA needs only 2 clock-cycles (but not at 3 GHz, at mere 55MHz). This full dynamic information differentiates Hydra from the PC-programs. They have a dynamic evaluation too, but on the PC one has to implement a compromise between speed and evaluation accuracy.


I have to confess that when I had a chance to see Kasparov vs Deep Junior I was kind of cheering for Jr – no rational here, can’t explain why! But in this case I really hope Adams wins! I think he can still do it but I’m concerned about his mental state at this point.

Ismenio


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Ismenio on June 24, 2005, 04:28PM

[quote][quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2638 date=1119655148]
[/quote]Ismenio

Apparently this prediction comes from John Nunn, one of the strongest English GMs of his day, and once in the world top ten players. A brilliant mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nunn

I think it just about sums it up. Many commentators are attributing Adams match situation to a combination of errors, tiredness, choosing the wrong openings, poor preparation and various other excuses. I very much doubt if Mickey would use any such reasoning. It is just a case that a 2750 Elo player is getting a beating from a 2900-2950 Elo player, and exactly the same fate would await any of the worlds top ten, with the possible exception of Kasparov.

Hydra is now much faster and stronger than it was just a year ago and there are further improvements planned.

John Nunn is making a joke of it but he is just confirming that the Machine has overtaken Man and is now disappearing into the distance.

2008 Leading GM loses to Ismenios wrist watch, on time. ;D

All the best
Mike[/quote]

Mike, I was just typing my previous post when you posted your reply. I think the schedule is unfair and that Mickey should have more time to rest.

Funny you mentioned the wrist watch! I'm trying my best not to buy it, especially now that the price is down to about $150.00.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=1186773&sku=M401-1006

Ismenio


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 24, 2005, 04:59PM

You are going to get one of these old fossils eventually. I think that at 100 bucks it will be irresistible. :)

The match schedule cannot help. Wednesdays game was tough, and to come out and face Hydra with the black pieces the next day must have been difficult. But Mickey's a hardened pro. He seemed relaxed in the Q&A session after Wednesdays game. When I used to play in tournaments I found them similar to taking exams. At the end of a hard game I felt mentally exhausted but on a high. Mickey looked like it was just part of a days work.

Mike


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Robert Weck on June 27, 2005, 04:21AM

Hello Ismenio,
[quote]
Funny you mentioned the wrist watch! I'm trying my best not to buy it, especially now that the price is down to about $150.00.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=1186773&sku=M401-1006
[/quote]
A nice toy! ;) I'm loving Palm's too (also PocketPC's! ;), but will "Chess Tiger" (or the other Palm-chess programs) run on it?

And the battery time is much too short! If you have to recharge it every day, how long will the accu survive this? And is it replaceable?

It's a very interesting device, but IMHO it would be enough to have 2 MB Ram and a 16 MHz CPU. This would give it much more battery-life! (my old Palm Personal (512KB, upgraded to 2 MB and 16 MHz) was running at least 20 hours with just 2 AAA's!)


best regards,
Robert


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Mike Watters on June 27, 2005, 11:40AM

Where is the human that thinks he can play chess?


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Title: Re:Michael Adams v Hydra
Post by: Ismenio on June 27, 2005, 06:08PM

[quote author=Robert Weck link=board=1;threadid=318;start=0#msg2671 date=1119871287]
A nice toy! ;) I'm loving Palm's too (also PocketPC's! ;), but will "Chess Tiger" (or the other Palm-chess programs) run on it?

And the battery time is much too short! If you have to recharge it every day, how long will the accu survive this? And is it replaceable?

It's a very interesting device, but IMHO it would be enough to have 2 MB Ram and a 16 MHz CPU. This would give it much more battery-life! (my old Palm Personal (512KB, upgraded to 2 MB and 16 MHz) was running at least 20 hours with just 2 AAA's!)


best regards,
Robert

[/quote]

Hi Robert,

I actually asked the support from Chess Tiger and they confirmed it would run on it! I am "this" close to getting one! I know the ELO rating wouldn't be all that great based on the processor speed but I still think it would be really cool to play chess on a watch! Especially when you're on a trip or in line! ;)

Yes, battery like is really not that great but from I have heard from others it doesn't seem to an issue if you recharge it regularly. Some have to charge it every other day.

If I do get it, you'll see a post here!

Ismenio

PS: As for Adams, I had no idea I would feel this bad because of him! :( I almost feel like this "guy" from Alain's site:



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