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Print Page Chess Computer Community
    General Category => Discussions about Chess Computers => Message started by: Mike Watters on November 21, 2005, 12:58PM
	

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Title: CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on November 21, 2005, 12:58PM


Back to the old topic of upgraded Chess Challengers, because this CC3 turned up today.



Apart from some wear to the box you could call it new. The pieces look like they have never been opened or the power cord unravelled.

This one is of interest in the old "how many CC1s were upgraded" debate because it may have been a CC1, but is now a CC3 in a CC3 box with the red 3 levels sticker. Could this little Fidelity sticker be connected with the upgrading? Usually they have only the serial number added.



If it is an upgraded CC1 then there are reasons to believe that it was sent back unsold to Fidelity by a retail store rather than a customer. Eventually it was sold by J.C.Penny for $129.99.

Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on November 21, 2005, 01:58PM

Hi Mike :)

Congratulations - this looks in excellent condition! :) pity there is only a single (though mint!) set of pieces :(

Your post gives me the opportunity of asking a couple of elementary questions that I have been thinking over for a while:

I know there is some debate about the numbers of CC1s upgraded to CC3 but what did this upgrade involve? Following upgrade was the same CC1 unit returned with a new ROM and new keyboard to address the co-ordinate issue or was a new computer simply shipped? Did the upgrade require all elements to be returned (eg instruction manual/packaging etc)?

Also, aside from the box with sticker (which I don't have) how do you tell if your CC3 is an upgraded CC1 or an original CC3?

Puzzled regards


Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Ismenio on November 22, 2005, 04:23AM

Chris,

Those are very interesting questions that I have wondered about myself. I don't know the answer to them and I could especulate I guess. Even the red sticker is something interesting to me. I bought my CC3 from someone on your side of the pond and it didn't have the red sticker. And he was the original owner.

Later I saw another one sold on eBay and the auction was in UK and it also didn't have the red sticker on the box.

All this mistery makes it more interesting doesn't it? ;D

We had a poll a while back asking the members how many would have upgraded their CC1 at the time. Maybe we should revisit that and see what results we would get today 8)

Ismenio


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on November 22, 2005, 04:33AM

Hi Ismenio, :)

Thanks for this - glad its not just me in the dark!

[quote]

We had a poll a while back asking the members how many would have upgraded their CC1 at the time. Maybe we should revisit that and see what results we would get today

[/quote]

I have missed this - at the time I think I would have upgraded the CC1 but now, no! ;)

Best wishes

Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on November 23, 2005, 03:11PM

[quote author=Chris link=board=1;threadid=589;start=0#msg4585 date=1132610282]
Hi Mike :)

Congratulations - this looks in excellent condition! :) pity there is only a single (though mint!) set of pieces :(

Your post gives me the opportunity of asking a couple of elementary questions that I have been thinking over for a while:

I know there is some debate about the numbers of CC1s upgraded to CC3 but what did this upgrade involve? Following upgrade was the same CC1 unit returned with a new ROM and new keyboard to address the co-ordinate issue or was a new computer simply shipped? Did the upgrade require all elements to be returned (eg instruction manual/packaging etc)?

Also, aside from the box with sticker (which I don't have) how do you tell if your CC3 is an upgraded CC1 or an original CC3?

Puzzled regards


Chris
[/quote]Hi Chris

Thanks for the congrats. Us ordinary mortals are just relieved when we get one set of pieces you know. :(

Your questions are anything but elementary. As Sid Samole is sadly dead and Ron Nelson does not seem to remember much about these things it is a question of gathering snippets of information about what happened back then.

The invitation to upgrade your Chess Challenger with a more difficult program was definitely not phrased in a way that would lead people to expect a new CC3 in exchange. The (oops!)umption is that the Eprom and keypad/board surface were replaced, a new manual provided and a red sticker placed on the box if you returned it. These days that would be much too troublesome but back then the hardware was the expensive thing I guess.

On your second question, I have looked at my CC1s and CC3s quite carefully and they are all different. The backs are either glued, held in place with panel pins or staples. There is variation in colour of the board surfaces and wood. The latest CC3 is a darker wood than the ones I have seen so far. There is no obvious pattern in the serial numbers either.

So like Ismenio says all the mystery makes you want to find out more.

All the best
Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on December 6, 2005, 10:35AM

Hi Mike, :)

[quote]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the congrats. Us ordinary mortals are just relieved when we get one set of pieces you know.

Your questions are anything but elementary. As Sid Samole is sadly dead and Ron Nelson does not seem to remember much about these things it is a question of gathering snippets of information about what happened back then.

The invitation to upgrade your Chess Challenger with a more difficult program was definitely not phrased in a way that would lead people to expect a new CC3 in exchange. The (oops!)umption is that the Eprom and keypad/board surface were replaced, a new manual provided and a red sticker placed on the box if you returned it. These days that would be much too troublesome but back then the hardware was the expensive thing I guess.

On your second question, I have looked at my CC1s and CC3s quite carefully and they are all different. The backs are either glued, held in place with panel pins or staples. There is variation in colour of the board surfaces and wood. The latest CC3 is a darker wood than the ones I have seen so far. There is no obvious pattern in the serial numbers either.

So like Ismenio says all the mystery makes you want to find out more.

All the best
Mike


[/quote]

Sorry for my tardy acknowledgement - Thanks very much for this further clarification - it is indeed very intriguing. I never realised there was so much uncertainty.

Whilst ebay prices in general seem to have gone a bit haywire recently CC3 prices seem to be coming down at least!

Best wishes


Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on December 13, 2005, 01:33AM

The saga continues.

I have been sorting through my collection over the last few weeks trying to bring order to a m(oops!) of chess computers. In amongst the chaos I found a set of CC1/CC3 pieces. Well not a complete set as it is missing two pawns. Anyway I must have got these with another chess computer, perhaps a CC7, and thrown them with all the other misfits into the chess pieces box. This was before I learnt the value of CC1/CC3 pieces, of course. ;)

Next to them was an old red box of Milton Bradley Chess Men. These I got as a make weight in a deal in the distant past. To my surprise the MBs were very similar to the CC1/CC3 pieces. Indeed the pawns and knights were identical, apart from colour, and the rooks also, apart from tiny notches in their tops. Which leads me to believe that Milton Bradley were the source of the CC1/CC3 wooden pieces.

Meanwhile I have now seen the early CC1 plastic pieces on two other non CC1 or Tryom old Ebay listings, one for a Compuchess. This backs up the idea that they were generic pieces used by Fidelity at the beginning because they were handy and available until they switched to the wooden ones. Maybe MB made the plastics as well?

These are just theories of course.

Anyone got two spare CC1/CC3 pawns? ;D

Jigsaw regards
Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on December 13, 2005, 05:16AM

Hi Mike, :)

Interesting circumstantial evidence - thanks for sharing this.

One of my sets of CC1/CC3 pieces arrived with my Boris Master, I had simply (oops!)umed that these had got mixed up! :o From previous postings I don't think any Boris computer was originally supplied with these pieces?

[quote]
This was before I learnt the value of CC1/CC3 pieces, of course.

[/quote]
Thanks to you I now also know :), and as evidenced by the CC3 auctions which appear to come with CC7 pieces!

[quote]

Anyone got two spare CC1/CC3 pawns?

[/quote]
LOL, I'm starting to get a feeling of 'deja vu' here! :)

Best wishes


Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on December 13, 2005, 04:55PM

[quote author=Chris link=board=1;threadid=589;start=0#msg4798 date=1134479811]
Hi Mike, :)

Interesting circumstantial evidence - thanks for sharing this.

One of my sets of CC1/CC3 pieces arrived with my Boris Master, I had simply (oops!)umed that these had got mixed up! :o From previous postings I don't think any Boris computer was originally supplied with these pieces?

[/quote]
Hi Chris

Hang on to that Boris Master. They are not so easy to come by. I have been looking for the right one for months. The ordinary Boris's seem to outnumber Masters 10 to 1.

My Boris's have the yellow and brown plastic pieces similar to the MGS and Great Game Machine pieces. Ismenio's are the same :-

http://www.ismenio.com/Chess_BORIS_08.JPG

[quote]

Anyone got two spare CC1/CC3 pawns?
LOL, I'm starting to get a feeling of 'deja vu' here! :)

[/quote]

OK I can always varnish the MB ones to match the CC1/CC3 pawns. Then all I will need is two spare MB pawns. 8)


All the best
Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on December 15, 2005, 12:24PM

Hi Mike, :)

[quote]
Hang on to that Boris Master. They are not so easy to come by. I have been looking for the right one for months. The ordinary Boris's seem to outnumber Masters 10 to 1.

My Boris's have the yellow and brown plastic pieces similar to the MGS and Great Game Machine pieces. Ismenio's are the same :-

http://www.ismenio.com/Chess_BORIS_08.JPG

[/quote]

Yes, the Boris Master is one of my favourite computers. Unfortunately, mine has suffered the all to common fate of burn damage to the LED display. I find it very difficult if not impossible to distinguish between b7-b5 and e7-e5 and d7-d5 not to mention a whole host of other possible moves! Sorts of makes it difficult to play against! :(

BTW - I haven't forgotten about the Queen odds games I mentioned the other week. I am hoping to find some time over the Christmas break. I will use my Boris Diplomat which is working fine! 8)

Best wishes

Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on December 15, 2005, 03:42PM

[quote]Yes, the Boris Master is one of my favourite computers. Unfortunately, mine has suffered the all to common fate of burn damage to the LED display. I find it very difficult if not impossible to distinguish between b7-b5 and e7-e5 and d7-d5 not to mention a whole host of other possible moves! Sorts of makes it difficult to play against! :(

BTW - I haven't forgotten about the Queen odds games I mentioned the other week. I am hoping to find some time over the Christmas break. I will use my Boris Diplomat which is working fine! 8)

Best wishes

Chris
[/quote]Chris

I have the full works from a Boris in a shoe box up in the loft. They are easy to take out of the walnut box and I imagine just as easy to put back in. I think that Ismenio did a Boris repair with pictures at one point. When I last tested the guts they worked just fine.

You are welcome to parts, or a complete replacement if you like. But then it wouldn't be a Boris Master. ;D

Looking forward to the Queen odds games.

Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Ismenio on December 15, 2005, 03:44PM

Here's a contest idea: post a picture of a piece and have others guess what computer that is from ;)

Should the winner have the computer????

Ismenio


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on December 18, 2005, 01:11AM

Hi Mike, :)


[quote]

I have the full works from a Boris in a shoe box up in the loft. They are easy to take out of the walnut box and I imagine just as easy to put back in. I think that Ismenio did a Boris repair with pictures at one point. When I last tested the guts they worked just fine.

You are welcome to parts, or a complete replacement if you like. But then it wouldn't be a Boris Master.

[/quote]

This is kind, many thanks.

Are the innards of the diplomat and Master the same and therefore simply transferrable? I know others here are both skillful and brave in opening up their computers, unfortunately I am technically incompetent (having made no progress since failing my Electronics O level dismally many years ago! :(). A few screws I could manage, much more and I'm a stressed and gibbering wreck! :-[

Thanks again and best wishes

Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on December 19, 2005, 02:01AM

[quote author=Chris link=board=1;threadid=589;start=0#msg4813 date=1134897096]
Hi Mike, :)


[quote]

I have the full works from a Boris in a shoe box up in the loft. They are easy to take out of the walnut box and I imagine just as easy to put back in. I think that Ismenio did a Boris repair with pictures at one point. When I last tested the guts they worked just fine.

You are welcome to parts, or a complete replacement if you like. But then it wouldn't be a Boris Master.

[/quote]

This is kind, many thanks.

Are the innards of the diplomat and Master the same and therefore simply transferrable? I know others here are both skillful and brave in opening up their computers, unfortunately I am technically incompetent (having made no progress since failing my Electronics O level dismally many years ago! :(). A few screws I could manage, much more and I'm a stressed and gibbering wreck! :-[

Thanks again and best wishes

Chris
[/quote]Hi Chris

I am not sure how similar the innards of the Diplomat and Boris are. I did take a look inside a Diplomat once but only to see if I could mend the display.

No sorry, I may have confused you. The innards in the shoe box are from what you may be calling a Boris Master and I am calling a Boris. The Boris Master is just a Boris with a Memory function and an extra switch position added.



Getting the innards in and out is just a question of a few screws and locating the power socket in the hole in the case. Then how many parts you swap between the two machines is up to you.

All the best
Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on January 6, 2006, 03:23PM

Hi Mike :)

Sorry for the delay in responding - yes I think I must be confused - Boris Master.....its the thing in the lovely walnut box isn't it! ???

If the display is an integrated unit this could be worth a try as it is not really playable as it is at the moment (also seem to have temporarily mislaid the psu ::)). I seem to remember Ismenio doing some work on the insides of a Boris, - Ismenio, can you shed any light on the ease or otherwise of such an operation for a technical novice?

Best wishes and thanks again

Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on January 8, 2006, 06:42AM

Hi Chris

This is a Boris Master :-



and here is the normal Boris :-



In truth there is very little difference between them. The Boris has an Off, On, Reset switch and the Master an Off, On , Save switch. ::)

The complete workings I have are the ordinary Boris.

All the best
Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on January 9, 2006, 01:16PM

Hi Mike, :)

Thanks for this - I am in error in that I didn't realize that there were 2 different (albeit very similar) Boris models in the box :-[ This makes it clear, thanks - I have the plain old Boris (your bottom picture). Is this good news?

Regards

Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on January 10, 2006, 05:43AM

Chris

Maybe it is sad news that you just have the normal Boris, but at least now there is no excuse for not changing the innards. ;D

Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on January 10, 2006, 09:19AM

Hi Mike,

Ok I think you've talked me into it! :) - mine is not special and does not work properly. Notwithstanding my lack of technical ability if there is a chance of success.....

Dr Frankenstein regards

Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Ismenio on January 11, 2006, 06:09PM

Just so you know Chris, we have a rule here in this forum: 8) Though we don't recommend opening chess computers, if you have to do it, you must take pictures and share with others. Or else.... we won't see them ;)

Just kidding (sort of!) but if you need help on the Boris, I may be able to help. I've made a transplant before to fix a display on a model I have and they are not really hard to work with.

Check this thread:

http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=8;start=0

Ismenio

PS: I still have hope that your computer will show up at your door!!! :-


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on January 13, 2006, 05:16AM

Hi Ismenio :)

This is great - thank you ; camera shake from an advanced state of gibberishness would be the only likely problem! ;)

Best wishes


Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on January 14, 2006, 07:29AM

Hi Chris/Ismenio

Here are pictures of the innards :-





Chris all you have to do is undo the four screws and the screw ring that holds the power input to the box at the back. Wriggle the power input free and lift it all out. Then replace with the new innards. The metal plates and perspex display cover, which go on top of the electronics, just lift off. But you do not have to remove them just change the whole unit in one go.

As you can see the innards are in good condition and fully working.

Hope all fears are allayed. Do I send them?

Mike


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Chris on January 16, 2006, 11:16AM

Hi Mike, :)

Great pictures! (and no shake at all!)

You have convinced me with your clear instructions, I think even I could pull this off!

I will send you a PM.

Many thanks again


Chris


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Title: Re:CC1/CC3 - Another Piece in the Jigsaw?
Post by: Mike Watters on January 18, 2006, 06:50AM

OK Chris I got the PM.

Will send the guts off to you this week.

Best regards
Mike



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