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Print Page Chess Computer Community
    General Category => Discussions about Chess Computers => Message started by: Robert Weck on March 27, 2006, 03:26AM
	

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Title: Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on March 27, 2006, 03:26AM

Hello,


the topic says it all; for the Secondo, the levels would be enough...

Of course, it doesn't have to be a hardcopy; a scan or readable photos of the pages are absolutely ok! ;)


thank you very much!

Robert


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Mike Watters on March 27, 2006, 07:31AM

I would also like a copy of the Steinitz manual if anyone has this.

Robert I do have the Steinitz key overlay and box. On the back of the box is a detailed explanation of the features. With this information you can work out most things. I tried to photograph this but it did not come out quite well enough to read. Let me know if you want a photocopy.

All the best
Mike


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on March 27, 2006, 11:07PM

Hello Mike,


on 1143473487]
I would also like a copy of the Steinitz manual if anyone has this.

Robert I do have the Steinitz key overlay and box.
[/quote]
In Germany we say: "Schon mal besser als nichts!" (already better than nothing! ;D)

If you can't photograph it, could you maybe tell me the letterings on the keys (i mean these keys, which are different from a Sargon or Sandy module)

I know something about some of the features: e.g. when you hit 'Level' and then 'Best', it shows the score.

For sure, you already know, that 'Level' shows the depth!

And it has a user-programmable level: press 'Level' and then 'Time'; now you are asked for 'First Period Moves' (always press 'Restore' to confirm your entries) and 'First Period Minutes', the same for 'Remaining' moves and minutes and the number of the current move. When finished, press 'Enter'; when you hit 'Restore' instead, then the procedure comes up again!

I only have the keyboard overlays from Sargon and Sandy; so i don't know, whether the key-letterings are the same on Steinitz!

Not bad compared to the previous modules; now you can set up a countdown-level! (i like the 30min/game matches very much)

I can do it the same way, like i set up Resurrection for an Active Chess match (25 mins for the first 99 moves and 5 mins for another 40 or 50 moves)

[quote, Mike Watters wrote:

On the back of the box is a detailed explanation of the features. With this information you can work out most things. I tried to photograph this but it did not come out quite well enough to read. Let me know if you want a photocopy.

Does it have so many features? Is it more, than you can write here?

Anyhow; try another photo (box and overlay); i have a good screen here! And i am short-sighted, so i can come very close to it, to read! ;D

Doesn't your camera have a macro mode? Your 'repair' pictures are looking very good!


thank you very much,
Robert

P.S.: I know a guy, who has the manual, but he has no scanner! >:(

Every good collector should have a scanner! ;D


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Mike Watters on March 29, 2006, 06:58AM

Robert pull up your chair and get ready to squint at the screen.











OK you cannot read that? ;D
Try these :-







So far I haven't tested all of the functions, so I don't know whether this information is really sufficient. I guess the level settings are still a mystery.

As for getting a scanner. That part I have managed. However the computer I was going to use it with, along with a lot of my software and emails, has gone back to the manufacturer. :( So it is still photocopies or blurred photos. As for macros I will leave those to proper photographers. ???

All the best
Mike


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on March 29, 2006, 07:39AM

Mike, that's perfect! :)

[quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=738;start=0#msg5700 date=1143644283]

So far I haven't tested all of the functions, so I don't know whether this information is really sufficient. I guess the level settings are still a mystery.
[/quote]
Here i can help:

level 0-mate finder mate in 1 to mate in 11
level 1-5 seconds per move average
2-15 seconds per move average
3-1 minute per move average
4-5 minutes per move average
5-15 minutes per move average
6-30-60 minutes per move average
7-30 moves per hour
8-40 moves -two hours
9-infinite level
10(TM)-user adjustable..can set moves and time

got this from SteveB!
[quote]
As for getting a scanner. That part I have managed. However the computer I was going to use it with, along with a lot of my software and emails, has gone back to the manufacturer. :( So it is still photocopies or blurred photos. As for macros I will leave those to proper photographers. ???
[/quote]
But your photos are absolutely ok! All (except the first one ;)) are perfectly readable!

I hope, you will soon have your computer back (i (oops!)ume, it is defective?)


many thanks,
Robert


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Mike Watters on March 29, 2006, 09:36AM

Robert

That's excellent. Thank you for the levels.

I have a Morphy Encore, GGM and no less than 6 (six) :-[ MGS machines with various combinations of modules - Sargon, Boris, Morphy, Sandy Master, Steinitz, Capa, Gruenfeld, Gruenfeld 'S'. The main issue I thought I had with a couple of the MGS machines was the unreliability of the switches to allow them to retain the game in memory. But perhaps there is a difference between some of the MGS's as to their ability to switch modules? I know one MGS to be a MGS-1 and I have (oops!)umed the others to be MGS IIIs but they are basically indistinguishable one from another.

Have you concluded that all MGS's accept all modules?

Mike


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: PaulM on March 29, 2006, 01:27PM

One thing I remember for the MGS is that when you change modules, you have to press the rank key to stop the computer from thinking or else it moves pieces around and by the time the new module is fired up, the board position has changed.


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on March 29, 2006, 11:31PM


on 1143653795]
I have a Morphy Encore, GGM and no less than 6 (six) :-[ MGS machines with various combinations of modules - Sargon, Boris, Morphy, Sandy Master, Steinitz, Capa, Gruenfeld, Gruenfeld 'S'.

The main issue I thought I had with a couple of the MGS machines was the unreliability of the switches to allow them to retain the game in memory. But perhaps there is a difference between some of the MGS's as to their ability to switch modules? I know one MGS to be a MGS-1 and I have (oops!)umed the others to be MGS IIIs but they are basically indistinguishable one from another.
[/quote]
I disscussed this with SteveB and his experience is, that at least the MGS machines, that were available in US all had no memory switch feature (he said, they were not made for changing modules during play! :o))

Do all your MGS have a memory position on their switches?

The Chafitz machines with the memory feature were all called 'Great Game Machine' (GGM), not MGS.

He also did not know of more than one MGS version, but of course there must be at least three (as i have a Sandy Master manual, that mentions a 'MGS III')

His opinion was, that for Germany this was changed (maybe they sold the US-GGM in the 'old world' as MGS?)
[quote, Mike Watters wrote:

Have you concluded that all MGS's accept all modules?

I have only 1(!) :'( MGS, so i can't confirm this for the other versions, but mine accepts Sargon 2.5, Sandy Master, Gruenfeld, Capablanca 'S' and Steinitz.

I have a little problem with the Gruenfeld/Sandy Master combination; at some openings, after switching from Gruenfeld to Sandy, it refuses to make a move! It displays move (blinking) and computes and computes and computes, but no go! >:( All looks ok; it even changes the moves in the display, if a better one was found, but there is no end! Even when I let it think up to one hour; and on level 2 it should not take longer than 10-40 secs according to the manual!

Like i said, this always happens with the same openings; maybe you want to check this with yours?

It is not a big problem, because there is an easy workaround: i have to interrupt with 'Halt', then i have to take the move back with 'Restore' (otherwise this repeats at the next move!), re-enter it and then everything works like it should! ;D

If you want, i can give you the openings that show that problem.

It seems to be a problem with my Sandy module, because this doesn't happen, when i use the Capa 'S' instead!

Did you know, that you can use Capa as a midgame module as well? ;) And it is not playing badly: in the 'Legal's Mate' competition it performs better than Sandy!

At the moment I test it against a CXG 209 Star Chess (Sandy has a score of 3 - 2 against this until now)

Capa 'S' already won the first game! ;)


Chafitz testing regards,
Robert


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Mike Watters on March 30, 2006, 01:58AM

Robert

As I have USA (2), British, German (2) and Sandy MGS versions and a USA GGM all with manuals I should be able to check out some of these things. Certainly when I tested and catalogued the machines over the winter my impression was that the MGS's were basically indistinguishable wherever they came from. The GGM is, of course, easily distinguished by the colour scheme, numbered squares etc.

Is it possible that the MGS III is a Sandy marketing ploy? Anyway the manuals should help to unravel this. Unfortunately I found out that opening up an MGS is not to be undertaken lightly because of a tricky ribbon cable, so looking inside for differences is not something I intend to do.

Now that you mention it I do remember from back in the early 1980s that when I was being lazy I did use the Capa for playing the whole game. :-[ It doesn't work for the Gruenfeld. ;D I will check if my Sandy/Gruenfeld combination act the same way as yours, and whether this is repeated for any of the others. Could you let me know the particular openings, please.

I kept all the MGS/GGM publicity material from the early 1980s and I have a question and answer sheet which includes this:-

Q: Is the Capablanca cartridge compatible with the Modular Game System?
A: The Capablanca cartridge, as is the case with all Applied Concept's cartridges, is compatible with both the original Modular Game System and the new Great Game Machine.

All of the MGS's I have do have the memory switch setting. I have also tested most of them with the rechargeable batteries. I have no doubt that all but one (British) retain the position in the memory setting, although worn switches on one or two of the machines mean that using the memory function is a good way of losing your game. :(

All the best
Mike


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on March 30, 2006, 05:25AM


on 1143712709]
Robert

As I have USA (2), British, German (2) and Sandy MGS versions and a USA GGM all with manuals I should be able to check out some of these things.
[/quote]
With these many MGS machines, it looks like you are the Applied Concepts expert here in this forum! ;)

Quote:

Certainly when I tested and catalogued the machines over the winter my impression was that the MGS's were basically indistinguishable wherever they came from. The GGM is, of course, easily distinguished by the colour scheme, numbered squares etc.
[/quote]
In Steve's Applied Concepts gallery there is a MGS which has letters in the lower right and upper left corners of the fields. Mine has it only lower right.

And i have asked him for close-up photos of the switches, that are lacking the 'mem'-position (would be interesting for the Wiki!)
[quote]
I will check if my Sandy/Gruenfeld combination act the same way as yours, and whether this is repeated for any of the others. Could you let me know the particular openings, please.

of course, i will look after it!
[quote, Mike Watters wrote:

All of the MGS's I have do have the memory switch setting. I have also tested most of them with the rechargeable batteries.

Are these batteries original? I can't believe, that they still work after all these years!
But when i look in the manual, they look like 2x1,5V standard-cells (maybe worth a try to buy new ones)


best regards,
Robert


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on March 30, 2006, 05:57AM


on 1143725139, Robert Weck wrote:

And i have asked him for close-up photos of the switches, that are lacking the 'mem'-position (would be interesting for the Wiki!)

Steve just answered to make it clear: all the MGS have the memory switch position, but for the old MGS's it was only intended to hold the game in memory, not for changing modules!

A simple case of misunderstanding...


Robert


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Mike Watters on March 30, 2006, 07:12AM

Robert

This is a rechargeable battery out of a MGS :-



The rechargeable batteries I have still work though this one was helping to cause a problem by making the display on one MGS so dim it was hardly visible at all. Though oddly it did not have this effect on other MGS's. ???

If you have odd behaviour from an MGS and it has a rechargeable battery in it one of the first things to try is removing it, I have found. You know if you have one from the extra weight. I have not tried a rechargeable 9 volt battery. Either it would work a treat or sparks and fumes would tell the story. 8)

One of the pleasant surprises I had with the Boris Master, which arrived recently, was that the rechargeable battery in that still works. After 12 hours charge it will keep going for an hour or so. Not bad for an old stager of 27 years old! :D

Have You Played Before regards
Mike


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Endspielgott on March 30, 2006, 07:57AM

Hey Mike,

since you've got a whole bunch of MGS...are you interested in selling one?

C


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Mike Watters on March 30, 2006, 08:40AM

Christian

Yes x2. But sending one from the UK to Canada may cost too much postage to be worthwhile? I would swap one for a Mach III though. ;D

Robert

So much for indistinguishable! :-[. I have had a good look at all the MGS's and I found 4 with numbers (1-32 on the dark squares) and 2 with chess notation only. The 2 without have Chafitz written on the side in addition to the Modular Game System they all have there. The Chafitz ones both have serial number plaques, the others don't. There is no correlation between the types and countries, as one of the no numbers ones came from the USA with a USA power supply and the other from Germany with the original German power supply.

The only mention of MGS III is on a German Sandy Master/Encore manual. Other German MGS Sargon/Boris manuals do not mention MGS III.

I wonder then if the original MGS is the Chafitz one with no numbers. Then there is an intermediate MGS with numbers but still pre GGM/Encore. Then the MGS III appears just in Germany at much the same time as the GGM and Morphy arrive in USA/UK?

Spot Me A Queen regards
Mike


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Endspielgott on March 30, 2006, 10:19AM


on 1143736821, Mike Watters wrote:

Christian

Yes x2. But sending one from the UK to Canada may cost too much postage to be worthwhile? I would swap one for a Mach III though. ;D



Well it could still be worth it if you mark it as a present...but I will not swap it against a Mach III...as I wont't change my BMW against an Austin Mini 8)

Concerning the Mach III...some fool at ebay demands the ridiculous amount of 600 Dollars for this device ;)

Christian


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: alainza on March 30, 2006, 10:26PM

Hi Christian,

[quote author=Endspielgott link=board=1;threadid=738;start=0#msg5713 date=1143742752]
Concerning the Mach III...some fool at ebay demands the ridiculous amount of 600 Dollars for this device ;)
[/quote]
first, I found your price very high (anyway, I already have two Mach III), but then I saw this auction :
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6263549743 (http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6263549743)
So, now I think that your Mach III is cheap ;D

Best,
Alain


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on March 31, 2006, 01:01AM

[quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=738;start=0#msg5712 date=1143736821]
The only mention of MGS III is on a German Sandy Master/Encore manual. Other German MGS Sargon/Boris manuals do not mention MGS III.
[/quote]
I (oops!)ume, the MGS III was not yet available at this time! (maybe not even planned!) Also the Gruenfeld/Sandy/Morphy/Capablanca's came much later than Sargon2.5/Boris 2.5 (>1 year according to your timeline)

And i just saw, that the GGM came at the same time as G/S/M/C; so this would fit into Steve's theorie, that only the GGM was originally made for changing module's during play!


I have two openings for you:

Gruenfeld/Sandy playing white:

1.c4 e5 2.g3 d5

and the second, where G/S had the black pieces:

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 e4 5.Nd2


thank you for testing!


regarding the rechargable batteries:

it looks to me, that they put 2x3 AA-cells together.

I'm not sure, if a 9V rechargable would work, if the polarity is correct. But i don't know, whether the slightly higher voltage could case problems. And the capacity of a typical 9V rechargable is rather low, so i don't think, that it would last very long.
I would say, it is not worth the risk...

Amazing that your old batteries still work!


regards,
Robert


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Overtom on April 4, 2006, 02:25AM

[quote author=Robert Weck link=board=1;threadid=738;start=0#msg5683 date=1143458778]
Hello,


the topic says it all; for the Secondo, the levels would be enough...

Of course, it doesn't have to be a hardcopy; a scan or readable photos of the pages are absolutely ok! ;)


thank you very much!

Robert
[/quote]
At the moment, I'm in Berlin, but on my return, a Secondo should be in my snail mail box from Hein Velthuis. If you still want it, I hope to be able to send it by the end of the week.

mit herzlichen Grüßen (?),

tom


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on April 4, 2006, 04:02AM

Hello Tom,

[quote author=Overtom link=board=1;threadid=738;start=0#msg5735 date=1144142707]
At the moment, I'm in Berlin, but on my return, a Secondo should be in my snail mail box from Hein Velthuis. If you still want it, I hope to be able to send it by the end of the week.

mit herzlichen Grüßen (?),

tom
[/quote]
Does the Novag Uno maybe have the same program as the Secondo? I downloaded the Uno manual from Alain's website and found that this also has 16 levels just as the Secondo.

Also their names (Uno/Secondo) would point to this!

Maybe the Uno is the pressure-sensory version of the peg style Secondo? (the manual says, that the Uno can be used with the 8210 adaptor and has pressure sensitive fields)

If yes, then my search for the Secondo manual can be considered as finished! ;)


thank you,
Robert


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Overtom on April 7, 2006, 05:14PM

[quote author=Robert Weck link=board=1;threadid=738;start=0#msg5737 date=1144148540]
Hello Tom,
Does the Novag Uno maybe have the same program as the Secondo? I downloaded the Uno manual from Alain's website and found that this also has 16 levels just as the Secondo.

Also their names (Uno/Secondo) would point to this!

Maybe the Uno is the pressure-sensory version of the peg style Secondo? (the manual says, that the Uno can be used with the 8210 adaptor and has pressure sensitive fields)

If yes, then my search for the Secondo manual can be considered as finished! ;)

thank you,
Robert
[/quote]
Linguistically speaking, the equvalent of the Secondo is not Uno, but Primo.

But the levels of the Primo look the same as the Secondo's:

1-8: instantly - 26 sec.
9-12: tournament
13-15: 2,3,4 min/move
16: problems

If this is right, the levels are the same.

Best regards,

tom


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Mike Watters on April 9, 2006, 02:39PM

OK Robert I was finally able to test the Gruenfeld/Sandy combination.

The results I got were completely different to your own.

On 1 c4 e5 2. g3 d5 I was not able to get Gruenfeld to play 2.g3. It only knew Nc3. Gruenfeld 'S' played g3. After d5 it signalled mid game and on switching to Sandy the game continued normally with Sandy playing Bg2 after taking the correct amount of time according to the level settings.

On 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 e4 5.Nd2 Gruenfeld signalled midgame and on switching to Sandy the game continued normally with Nd4 on Level 1 and Level 2. Gruenfeld 'S' went much deeper in book - 25 ply.

:-\

A point from another Q & A sheet I have is that it was apparently possible to get a MGS upgraded to a GGM by sending it back to the factory. Why anyone would want to do that when the modules are all useable in both I am not sure. At the time I bought my GGM in August 1982 I had the distinct impression that it was needed to use the new modules. Nobody told me differently. ;)

From the publicity leaflets I have it is clear that the MGS was sold with the memory switch from the beginning in the UK. The Rechargeable batteries were a £25 option.

Best regards
Mike


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on April 10, 2006, 05:00AM

[quote author=Overtom link=board=1;threadid=738;start=0#msg5747 date=1144455263]
Linguistically speaking, the equvalent of the Secondo is not Uno, but Primo.
[/quote]
As you are/were a teacher for English, i will not disagree with you! ;) (i am far away from being a linguistic expert!)
[quote]
But the levels of the Primo look the same as the Secondo's:

1-8: instantly - 26 sec.
9-12: tournament
13-15: 2,3,4 min/move
16: problems
[/quote]
But here i do disagree: according to the manual, the Primo has 44 levels (40/120 is level 7 there and is level 12 on the Uno)
[quote]
If this is right, the levels are the same.
[/quote]
I did some testing over the weekend and now i am pretty sure, that the Secondo has the same level settings as the Uno. It seems to use less time on level 5 and 6 than on level 4 (and this is stated in the manual of the Uno too; average response time is 20 secs on level 4 and 9/13 secs on levels 5/6)

For example: On Level 4 it avoided the Legal's Mate within 36", but on levels 5+6 it played the fatal Bxd1! (used only 27 secs))


I would say, that i am 80-90 % sure, that Uno and Secondo have the same program (and electronics too)

Btw.: I would say, that the Primo is playing a much better game than the Secondo!


thank you very much,
Robert


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Title: Re:Manuals wanted for Novag Secondo and Applied Concepts Steinitz module
Post by: Robert Weck on April 10, 2006, 05:23AM

[quote][quote author=Mike Watters link=board=1;threadid=738;start=0#msg5767 date=1144618746]
On 1 c4 e5 2. g3 d5 I was not able to get Gruenfeld to play 2.g3. It only knew Nc3. Gruenfeld 'S' played g3.
[/quote]
Hmm, that's interesting! Should my Gruenfeld be a Gruenfeld 'S'? ;)
[quote]
After d5 it signalled mid game and on switching to Sandy the game continued normally with Sandy playing Bg2 after taking the correct amount of time according to the level settings.
[/quote]
Ok, then there seems to be a little incompatibility only with my MGS/Gruenfeld/Sandy!
[quote]
On 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 e4 5.Nd2 Gruenfeld signalled midgame and on switching to Sandy the game continued normally with Nd4 on Level 1 and Level 2. Gruenfeld 'S' went much deeper in book - 25 ply.
[/quote]
Ok, no 'S' on my side! :(
[quote]
A point from another Q & A sheet I have is that it was apparently possible to get a MGS upgraded to a GGM by sending it back to the factory. Why anyone would want to do that when the modules are all useable in both I am not sure. At the time I bought my GGM in August 1982 I had the distinct impression that it was needed to use the new modules. Nobody told me differently. ;)
[/quote]
I would have thought this too! ;)

I would like to know: what are the exact differences (in hardware) between the normal MGS and the GGM? What was done by the company during the update?

Mike, do you know something about that?

From the publicity leaflets I have it is clear that the MGS was sold with the memory switch from the beginning in the UK.
[/quote]
Yes, Steve told me this too...


all the best,
Robert



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