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  My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
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   Author  Topic: My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!  (Read 866 times)
Mike Watters
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« on: August 12, 2005, 06:44AM »
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Quote:


Sort of a rush to get the first one on the market, it seems to me.

Any thoughts or comments?

Dick Schneiders


Dick

That is spot on IMHO. But they must have been further ahead of the game than they thought.

Mike
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Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2005, 06:25AM »
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Some interesting observations, at least to me, that I have just thought of about CC1's.

Ismenio has a section of the site about Fidelity and there is a copy of the diagram and patent information for the CC1.  The date shown for the patent is August of 1977!  Can this be correct?  The computer was on the market in the early part of 1977.  Would they really wait several months before getting a patent?

Also, this letest CC1 that I purchased was originally sold in March of 1977, per the packing slip I have.  Yet the manual still has the information about sending it in to be upgraded to a CC3 for $75.  It states that the upgrade would not be available until June of 1977, but even in March Fidelity was mentioning the upgrade.  The conclusion I come to was that Fidelity knew from the very beginning, before they released the first CC1, that they were flawed by the reverse notation and poor processor, but still released them anyway.  I feel that the primary reason for the "upgrade" was not so much to increase the levels from one to three, or make the computer a bit stronger, but to correct the flaws that were in the CC1.  They knew that the CC1 was a botched product, but they had not yet fixed the problems and yet they were offering the improved CC3 as an upgrade well before it had even been designed.

Sort of a rush to get the first one on the market, it seems to me.

Any thoughts or comments?

Dick Schneiders

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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2005, 05:44AM »
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Dick

Yes, that is the counter view and I accept what you say. I guess to some extent it depends on what sort of person you are yourself as to what you think happened to all those CC1s. Apart from this hobby and a modest collection of horse racing books I am not a hoarder. A CC1 would have stood no chance with me in the 1970-80s. It would have been returned or trashed.

Would a person who had just spent $200 (say $400? at todays prices) on what turns out to be a faulty and useless article take it back for a refund? I was relying as much on the Stephen Schwartz article, as my own inclination. Stephen Schwartz wrote :-

"These electronic
"wood pushers" probably created a world's record for dissatisfied customers.
And to add insult to injury, quality control was not all that evident in the
"ingenious" little gadgets, and department stores and mail-order houses had
their return policies tested to the limit from customers with complaints"

If this can be applied to the CC1 it is easy to see that a lot would have been returned to the stores and eventually to Fidelity.

You take the view that there have been a lot of CC1s coming forward for sale and that proves there must be more than 250 in existence. For a period of seven months in 2004 not a single one came forward. Playing devils advocate you could have said then that Novag Robots were more common.    Lately there has been a few but when you look at the records not as many as a subjective impression would suggest.

I was thinking of putting up a poll asking how many CC1s people thought are out there, but I think that only you, me and Ismenio would answer.

Karsten B provided an explanation of production numbers and serial numbers of early Fidelitys (CC1, CC3, CC7 etc) at

http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67615/messages/843.htm

It is in German and a Babelfish translation only gets you so far but it is informative.

Mike



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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2005, 04:37AM »
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Dick/Mike,

I did update the page after the email I got from a visitor. I may have worded things in a way that didn't convey the idea that there was a "theory" that most of the CC1s had been sent back for an upgrade.

All things aside, I have found that it is very hard to get accurate information in some areas. I've been going to libraries and trying to contact people for other info I want to get and I just can't!

Best,

Ismenio
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Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2005, 03:57AM »
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Quote from: Mike Watters on August 12, 2005, 01:22AM   




Dick

The number of CC1s that survive is of course pure speculation. Personally I doubt whether more than a maximum of 10% of buyers of the CC1 would have returned their CC1s to Fidelity for $75 upgrades. For me the theory that a lot of CC1s were returned to Fidelity relies on the information in the Stephen Schwartz article "Pity the Poor Chess Computer Buyer" which Ismenio put up in this thread :-

http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12

I have put up the link again because it is an interesting article which new members of the forum might not know about. The first paragraph is particularly relevant to this issue.

If dissatisfied customers returned their CC1s to stores in substantial numbers and if the stores were left with many unsold CC1s, when CC3s started to be sold, then the unsold CC1s could have ended up back at Fidelity. For me the theory that a lot of CC1s were returned relies on the stores rather than the customers returning them.

Just put yourself in the shoes of the customer in 1977. You have read in the magazines about mainframes playing computer chess. Suddenly there is a chess computer in the department stores available to buy, and you are fascinated. You buy one for $....., a substantial sum in those days. This is out of fascination with the concept and as a chess opponent. You get it home all excited and to your utter disappointment the CC1 is useless. The notation is the wrong way round. The play is excrutiatingly poor. It accepts illegal moves etc. What do you do? You take it back to the department store and demand your money back. Eventually you get your money back and the department store is left with a pile of unsold CC1s. Well this is a theory anyway.

I think I would have been one of the people who took it back asking for a refund. That is unless the wife bought it for me as a birthday present, in which case it would have gone in the closet and been disposed of after a respectable period had passed. Say 5-10 years

Whatever, I personally doubt whether more than a minority of CC1s survived the 1970s and 80s. As for them turning up on Ebay, this is the old supply and demand thing. Something that is quite rare turns up on Ebay. It fetches a high price. This encourages a few others that the time is ripe to sell. After a bit the article does not seem so rare after all. Prices fall. Less turn up on Ebay etc etc. Myself, I would be surprised if as many as 250 survived today.

Mike


Mike,

You must have taken your ginko today!    Your brain is working like you were 20 years younger, and you are making a lot of sense.  However, I suspect that a lot of people are like me.  Even though I would have been very disappointed at the CC1, I would not have returned it to the store.  Partly from laziness and partly from embarrassment at being fooled into buying such a useless item, but I would have tossed it into a closet and only used it when I felt like a laugh.  I would think that most serious chess players would have noticed the problems before buying the CC1 and simply waited until a better version came along (except for Bobby Fischer!).  They would have known that the CC1 was not worthy of them.  I feel that most of the CC1's went to people that were not real chess players and who had a lot of disposable income to throw away on stuff like this.  Also, a lot of them were probably purchased as gifts for people that really didn't want them or cared about them.  These sorts of people would not take the CC1 back to the store, but would keep it stored away after using it only a few times.  Since only 1,000 of them were sold, there really was not a huge demand for them, at the price they were selling at.  I simply don't think that the most of the buyers of the CC1 really cared about how well it functioned, but wanted to own the newest toy on the market.  I have not seen a sales figure for the CC3, but based on how many are showing up on eBay, it probably isn't very many, also.  However, once the CC10, and more so with the cheaper CC7, hit the market, the price was down enough for them to sell many, many units.  These are the models that I feel were purchased by just about every chess player out there.

You are certainly correct about the eBay effect, when something valuable shows up there.  However, the vast majority of those selling this stuff will have no clue of the relative value between a CC1, CC3 and CC7.  Since all three of these computers will look the same to the sellers, I would think there would be a much larger flood of CC7's on eBay then there have been, if sellers have been noticing how much CC1's are going for.  There have been a lot of auctions where the seller had a CC7 and thought that it was a valuable item, because of some CC1 sales.  And I have purchased 3 CC1's, on eBay, from sellers that didn't have a clue that it was worth any more than a few dollars - at least when they placed the auction ad.  They had no idea that these were selling for a lot of money.  Also, there really have not been very many CC3's on eBay.  Wouldn't those be showing up frequently, if sellers have seen the prices being paid for CC1's?  There had to have been a lot more CC3's in the market than the CC1's. 

I still feel that the vast majority of the 1,000 CC1's were not sent back to Fidelity for upgrade. 

Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2005, 01:22AM »
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Ismenio

I thought your CC1 info repeats the 1000 figure including this photo from the Chess Museum in Florida :-

http://www.ismenio.com/cc1_note_chess_museum.jpg

What was wrong?



Dick

The number of CC1s that survive is of course pure speculation. Personally I doubt whether more than a maximum of 10% of buyers of the CC1 would have returned their CC1s to Fidelity for $75 upgrades. For me the theory that a lot of CC1s were returned to Fidelity relies on the information in the Stephen Schwartz article "Pity the Poor Chess Computer Buyer" which Ismenio put up in this thread :-

http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12

I have put up the link again because it is an interesting article which new members of the forum might not know about. The first paragraph is particularly relevant to this issue.

If dissatisfied customers returned their CC1s to stores in substantial numbers and if the stores were left with many unsold CC1s, when CC3s started to be sold, then the unsold CC1s could have ended up back at Fidelity. For me the theory that a lot of CC1s were returned relies on the stores rather than the customers returning them.

Just put yourself in the shoes of the customer in 1977. You have read in the magazines about mainframes playing computer chess. Suddenly there is a chess computer in the department stores available to buy, and you are fascinated. You buy one for $....., a substantial sum in those days. This is out of fascination with the concept and as a chess opponent. You get it home all excited and to your utter disappointment the CC1 is useless. The notation is the wrong way round. The play is excrutiatingly poor. It accepts illegal moves etc. What do you do? You take it back to the department store and demand your money back. Eventually you get your money back and the department store is left with a pile of unsold CC1s. Well this is a theory anyway.

I think I would have been one of the people who took it back asking for a refund. That is unless the wife bought it for me as a birthday present, in which case it would have gone in the closet and been disposed of after a respectable period had passed. Say 5-10 years

Whatever, I personally doubt whether more than a minority of CC1s survived the 1970s and 80s. As for them turning up on Ebay, this is the old supply and demand thing. Something that is quite rare turns up on Ebay. It fetches a high price. This encourages a few others that the time is ripe to sell. After a bit the article does not seem so rare after all. Prices fall. Less turn up on Ebay etc etc. Myself, I would be surprised if as many as 250 survived today.

Mike
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Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2005, 06:45PM »
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Quote from: Ismenio on August 11, 2005, 06:39PM   



By the way, I got an email from a guy from CCC with a correction on the number of CC1's available. He said some post there caused quite a fuss on a discussion related to how many CC1s are out there and that I have the wrong info on the site. I'll be editing the CC1 page. I didn't expect that page to cause any troubles 
Anyone who sees any wrong data there please just let me know and I'll correct it. I try to research stuff before I post there and give the reference but that is not always possible.

On that note, on my visit to the Chess Museum in Florida I could verify that Fidelity indeed produced 1,000 units as I have on the site but no one could confirm how many were sent back for the CC1->CC3 upgrade. I think that's what caused some confusion.

Best,

Ismenio



Yes, I was a participant in that discussion.  Steve B. is certain, and I have to agree with him, that nowhere near 3/4 of the 1,000 CC1's were sent in to be upgraded to CC3's.  75% is simply way too high of a number to be believed.  There are too many of them showing up on eBay and elsewhere for there to only be 250 in existance.

That is the figure that is causing the contention.  I guess that somewhere here on your site you are saying that there are only 250 CC1's that were never upgraded.

It is all speculation, anyway, but I cannot fathom that many owners would have cared enough to spend the additional $75 to do the upgrade.

Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2005, 06:40PM »
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Quote from: Ismenio on August 11, 2005, 06:39PM   

Dick,

If you uploaded them, you're half way there!
You should see a list of HTML lines of code like this:



1. Select the option that says:
"Forum code that displays a thumbnail thank links to your full-sized image:"
Highlight that line and press Ctrl-C

2. Go into your message and press Ctrl-V where you want the picture to show up:

text text text text
<press Ctrl+V>
text text text text

Example:

Picture of a Phantom:


and that's it! Press Preview and you can see how it is going to look like when you post.

Let me know if that helps.

By the way, I got an email from a guy from CCC with a correction on the number of CC1's available. He said some post there caused quite a fuss on a discussion related to how many CC1s are out there and that I have the wrong info on the site. I'll be editing the CC1 page. I didn't expect that page to cause any troubles 
Anyone who sees any wrong data there please just let me know and I'll correct it. I try to research stuff before I post there and give the reference but that is not always possible.

On that note, on my visit to the Chess Museum in Florida I could verify that Fidelity indeed produced 1,000 units as I have on the site but no one could confirm how many were sent back for the CC1->CC3 upgrade. I think that's what caused some confusion.

Best,

Ismenio





Thanks Ismenio and Mike,

I think I have it and just posted three pictures of the manuals in a separate thread.

Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 06:39PM »
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Dick,

If you uploaded them, you're half way there!
You should see a list of HTML lines of code like this:



1. Select the option that says:
"Forum code that displays a thumbnail thank links to your full-sized image:"
Highlight that line and press Ctrl-C

2. Go into your message and press Ctrl-V where you want the picture to show up:

text text text text
<press Ctrl+V>
text text text text

Example:

Picture of a Phantom:


and that's it! Press Preview and you can see how it is going to look like when you post.

Let me know if that helps.

By the way, I got an email from a guy from CCC with a correction on the number of CC1's available. He said some post there caused quite a fuss on a discussion related to how many CC1s are out there and that I have the wrong info on the site. I'll be editing the CC1 page. I didn't expect that page to cause any troubles 
Anyone who sees any wrong data there please just let me know and I'll correct it. I try to research stuff before I post there and give the reference but that is not always possible.

On that note, on my visit to the Chess Museum in Florida I could verify that Fidelity indeed produced 1,000 units as I have on the site but no one could confirm how many were sent back for the CC1->CC3 upgrade. I think that's what caused some confusion.

Best,

Ismenio


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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 05:13PM »
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Dick

I wasn't sure what to make of the 1001 claim as there seemed to be no reaction to it. Which is why I didn't put it on the serial number list. I think "jannemann" is probably Jan Stroeher.

For the pictures to appear you paste the link to each one into your post, highlight it and click on the "insert image" symbol.

Mike
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Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2005, 05:02PM »
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Quote from: Ismenio on August 10, 2005, 07:18PM   

Hi Dick,


As for showing pictures here. What I recommend is use the free service from http://xs.to/
You can upload pictures directly from your computer and once they're uploaded you will get the line of code that you need to add to your message here. I usually use the preview option to see what they're going to look like. You can even load big pictures and get the code that will display the thumbnails here. I really like that service.

Let me know if you need more details and I can send you a mini-tutorial for that.



Ismenio


Ismenio,

Well, I have uploaded 3 pictures to the free site, xs.to, but I am not able to figure out what I need to do to put them into one of these postings here. 

I guess I will need some specifics.

Sorry,

Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2005, 04:52PM »
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Quote from: Mike Watters on August 11, 2005, 04:38PM   

Hi Dick

I looked up all my CC1/CC3 Ebay listings and other information to see if there was anything similar to your latest CC1.

The previous lowest serial number we knew about was 1827 - which is probably still owned by Luis Boj. He tried to sell it on Ebay in November at 899 Euros+ and got no bids. The pictures show what look like CC7 pieces.

All sorts of pieces turn up with CC1/CC3s as you know. Actually not many even have the original wooden pieces . You will be pleased to know that I have not found a single other example of the plastic pieces shown on the box picture.

When I saw the extra pictures the seller put up I thought that the red pads and panel pins on the base looked iffy. But now I see that two of mine have tiny panel pins holding the base on.

Can you see any differences in the CC1 itself?

It looks like you may be on your own on this one because it is a rare example.   I hope so.

All the best
Mike




Mike,

Thanks for the research. 

I don't see anything with the CC1 board that is any different from my others.  It is in much better condition than my other two, though.

The manual and the pieces are the only things that are different.

By the way, somebody that knows "jannemann" very well says that he was joking when he claimed to have a CC1 with serial number of 1001.

I am trying to get some pictures posted here, but still can't figure out how to do it.

Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2005, 04:38PM »
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Hi Dick

I looked up all my CC1/CC3 Ebay listings and other information to see if there was anything similar to your latest CC1.

The previous lowest serial number we knew about was 1827 - which is probably still owned by Luis Boj. He tried to sell it on Ebay in November at 899 Euros+ and got no bids. The pictures show what look like CC7 pieces.

All sorts of pieces turn up with CC1/CC3s as you know. Actually not many even have the original wooden pieces . You will be pleased to know that I have not found a single other example of the plastic pieces shown on the box picture.

When I saw the extra pictures the seller put up I thought that the red pads and panel pins on the base looked iffy. But now I see that two of mine have tiny panel pins holding the base on.

Can you see any differences in the CC1 itself?

It looks like you may be on your own on this one because it is a rare example.   I hope so.

All the best
Mike

« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 04:43PM by Mike Watters » Report to moderator Logged
Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2005, 08:24PM »
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Quote from: Ismenio on August 10, 2005, 07:18PM   

Hi Dick,

Do the pieces perhaps look like the ones from the CC1 on display on the Chess Museum in Miami?




Ismenio,

No, and I had already checked out that picture.  The pieces I got are exactly like the ones on the picture on the cover of the CC1 manual (and the box) that you have. 

They are nothing like the ones from the museum.  Those look more like a later set, to me.

Dick Schneiders
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2005, 07:18PM »
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Hi Dick,

Do the pieces perhaps look like the ones from the CC1 on display on the Chess Museum in Miami?



Thread: http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomputers/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=344;start=0

As for showing pictures here. What I recommend is use the free service from http://xs.to/
You can upload pictures directly from your computer and once they're uploaded you will get the line of code that you need to add to your message here. I usually use the preview option to see what they're going to look like. You can even load big pictures and get the code that will display the thumbnails here. I really like that service.

Let me know if you need more details and I can send you a mini-tutorial for that.



Ismenio
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2005, 06:33PM »
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Quote from: Ismenio on August 10, 2005, 05:34PM   



Congrats Dick!

How about the pieces? Any chance you can share pictures with us?

I'm curious about your manual.
Here I have the pages of my manual. Could you compare them to yours? Just click on the to load the versions with higher resolution.

Mike, how do they compare to yours?

(Alain, if you're reading this, feel free to use them for your site)









Best,

Ismenio


Ismenio,

Ismenio,

I just made a very startling discovery.  It was obvious from the picture in the eBay auction for this CC1 that the pieces were not the original wooden pieces that we know came with the CC1 (and the CC3) computers.  I thought that they were simply some replacement pieces that had been thrown in with the computer at some point in its life.

You know, as we all do, the strange mystery about the pieces that are pictured on the boxes and manuals for the CC1 computer.  They are not the wooden ones that were sold with the CC1's, but of some different looking plastic pieces.  Well, there is no doubt at all that the pieces I have that came with this latest CC1 *are* the plastic pieces pictured on the box and manual!  They have to be the *original plastic* pieces for this early model CC1. 

Surely somebody else out there has seen these or knows about these, I hope. 

Your manual is exactly like the other two that I have that came with my first two CC1's.  The differences are as follows, page by page:

Page 1 - the picture is exactly the same, other than my "new" one is a bit clear and sharper.  However, mine has none of the dark background around the picture.  That part of the cover is the same white as the rest of the cover.  There is a light blue line forming a border around the picture.  Also, the words "Chess Challenger" and "Made In U.S.A." are in blue lettering.

Page 2 - The wording is the same for both versions, but in slightly different positions.  The border around the section titled "The Play" is a blue line on mine, instead of brown.  Also, the lines going from the buttons on the picture of the key pad are blue and not brown.

Page 3 - The words "Chess Challenger Fidelity Electronics" at the top of the page are in blue.  The last section of the descriptive part of the page, "Chess Notes" is not included on my new manual. 

Page 4 - Again, like page 1, there is no dark brown background.  It is all white, with a thin blue line forming a border around the section with the words.  The words "Chess Challenger" at the top, and the "Fidelity Electronics, Ltd." and the address and logo are all in blue on mine.  The content of the 4th page is exactly the same on both versions.

I am really astounded about these differences and the discovery about the pieces.  I do not know what the reason is, other than this might be the way the very early CC1's were originally sold.  However, I cannot imagine that nobody else here has seen or heard about these variations.  Hopefully, somebody else will post something about this.

Ismenio,

I don't know how to post pictures here.  I have simply not yet taken the time to figure it out.  Can you give me a simple primer on the process, as I would like to do this.

Thanks,

Dick Schneiders

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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2005, 05:34PM »
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Congrats Dick!

How about the pieces? Any chance you can share pictures with us?

I'm curious about your manual.
Here I have the pages of my manual. Could you compare them to yours? Just click on the to load the versions with higher resolution.

Mike, how do they compare to yours?

(Alain, if you're reading this, feel free to use them for your site)









Best,

Ismenio
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Re:My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2005, 03:57PM »
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Dick

It is a 3-3 tie now. Can we have a truce please? 

I think that I mentioned before that a guy using the ID "jannemann" on Kurts Forum claimed to have a CC1 with the serial number 1001. If you search on "CC1" you will see the post. Perhaps someone here knows who "jannemann" is and whether his CC1 is an early one and has the same characteristics as yours.

I think we did come to a conclusion about roughly when the first CC1s reached the public but I can't remember when it was now. There have been so many CC1 threads I am getting confused.

Mike



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Dick Schneiders
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My "newest" Fidelity CC1 arrived and it has some differences!
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2005, 01:20PM »
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I just received my 3rd Fidelity CC1 today in the mail.  This is the one that
caused all of the controversy over the auction being closed prematurely and then
reopened again after I complained to the seller.

The CC1 is serial number 1171, as previously noted, which is a very low number.  The serial number is also in blue on the back of the board.
That might not mean anything, though.  The board itself is in as close to mint
condition as one could ever imagine.  There are no marks on the top of the board
at all.  This plus the box were the primary reasons I purchased another CC1.

However, there are some very interesting and notable differences in the manual
of this one and the other two that I have.  The front and back pages of my other
two have a dark brown background and border.  This manual does not have that,
but those areas are simply white.  The lettering "Chess Challenger" & "Made in
U.S.A.", on the front and "Chess Challenger", Fidelity Electronics, Ltd. and the
address along with the line border on the back are all in light *blue* lettering
on this manual.  On my other manuals these words are in white against the dark
brown color.  On the inside of this manual, the words "Chess Challenger" and
"Fidelity Electronics" above the picture of the key pad are also in light blue.
Also, this manual does not have the last section called "Chess Notes" that are
in my other two manuals.  The section "Demostration Moves" is the last section
of the manual.

Has anybody else seen a CC1 manual like this before?

One other item of note - the original packing slip is included.  While it does
not have a sales price, the date of the packing slip is 3/9/77.  Does that seem
quite early?  When were these first on the market?

I am very curious about these differences - what can they mean?  Anybody have any ideas?


Dick Schneiders
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