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  Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
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hondo
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« on: October 25, 2008, 12:03PM »
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Tom...  you are absolutely correct! I love your descripitive term "bite" as I find that to be exactly what transpired. I find myself attributing "human characteristics and emotions" to these chess computers and find myself laughing as I do so. Cognitively I know this is only my projecting these traits but I do it any way...esp. when I play the game and feel I have been set up by the computer to walk into a particularly nasty trap w/out escape.
I tried to acquire from EBAY a Radio Shack 2150l for my collection but lost out because of a glitch on my computer the other day. They also had a RS 2250XL but I felt the bidding went too high so I dropped out. I continue to look for games that bring larger libraries w/ more openings to learn from. It's just so difficult to bid against the commercial game buyers who buy and sell these games for profit rather than personal use and pleasure. Not sure how to get around this but I keep trying.  Regards.....    Hondo
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Tom
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2008, 11:45AM »
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Quote from: hondo on October 23, 2008, 11:27AM   

UPDATE: For those that might be interested .... as promised earlier I played 2 more games with all variables essentially the same EXCEPT I set the power mode on the MM to PS (0) and the brute force option was set to (-sel). Well game 1 was comparable to watching a slug fest on TV....LOL. I still have to say the Cent. plays a hell of an aggressive game pushing pawns and going for it all right from the start! Not to take anything from the MM who for the most part was a bit more defensive then I am use to it playing. With that said....game 1 ended in a draw by stalemate, three-fold repetition. At the games end .... MM was down a pawn more than the Cent. Game 2 was a bit different w/ MM playing a bit stronger from the start and taking a more aggressive center board attack. MM was willing to swap pieces evenly, stay 2 pawns ahead and advance them for a queen promotion and quickly end the game after that. I was hoping for a more dramatic climax but it was simply a well played power (brute force) ending.


Hondo, this means to me that the Master Chess plays a bit harder for the Centurion, doesn't he? The fact that the MM's playing strength is a hundred elo-points higher than that of the Centurion doesn't mean that he'll win every game. Centurion will "bite" him as often as he can, but over a bigger number of games the MM must have the better results.
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hondo
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2008, 11:27AM »
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UPDATE: For those that might be interested .... as promised earlier I played 2 more games with all variables essentially the same EXCEPT I set the power mode on the MM to PS (0) and the brute force option was set to (-sel). Well game 1 was comparable to watching a slug fest on TV....LOL. I still have to say the Cent. plays a hell of an aggressive game pushing pawns and going for it all right from the start! Not to take anything from the MM who for the most part was a bit more defensive then I am use to it playing. With that said....game 1 ended in a draw by stalemate, three-fold repetition. At the games end .... MM was down a pawn more than the Cent. Game 2 was a bit different w/ MM playing a bit stronger from the start and taking a more aggressive center board attack. MM was willing to swap pieces evenly, stay 2 pawns ahead and advance them for a queen promotion and quickly end the game after that. I was hoping for a more dramatic climax but it was simply a well played power (brute force) ending.
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hondo
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2008, 12:17PM »
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Hi Tom....Please forgive me but I had a good chuckle after reading the last few sentences of your post to me. I could almost hear you ....  say it isn't so..  "it cannot be true" Like the great Babe Ruth striking out with the bases loaded...  LOL  Ok...back to reality....You are correct on both counts and I will replay the game with your suggestions... I will set the MM power mode to PS (0) and I will set the sel. search to "brute force" or        (-sel).  I checked the Centurion manual and did not see anything that indicated you could manipulate a selective search algorithm. I will assume then you are correct that the Cent. plays a brute force algorithm all the time and the MM needs to have that option manually selected. The only other variable I can see is that for convenience I choose to have MM play white from the BOTTOM of the board by just pressing enter at the start of the game. I dont think it effects game play. Correct me if I am wrong.  Regards.....      Hondo
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2008, 10:55AM »
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Quote from: hondo on October 16, 2008, 11:55AM   

I am sorry Robert it was late at night and I didnt think to record the moves. However for what it's worth, every single game that I have played before between these two computers was under similar conditions ( except for the power saver mode which was ON in the earlier games) was won by the Centurion and might I say most convincingly !!      Hondo


Dear Hondo, can you switch the playing mode of your Mephisto Master over to brute force play? As far as I can remember the Centurion does not have the distinction between selective play and brute force play. It always plays brute force. This may be the reason that it seems to play stronger than the MM, because it computes the moves more closed-meshedly. That's why you should change the playing mode of the MM also to brute force.
I refuse to believe that the Centurion is the better one.  Your MM has got the better cpu and the better programme. It is impossible that the Centurion can keep the upper hand against the MM on the long run. There must be some kind of mistake in your handling, but I can't figure that out. O.k., at the moment it seems, as if the Centurion were the better one in direct comparison with the Mephisto Master Chess Computer,  but it is definitely not true, it cannot be true!
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2008, 11:55AM »
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I am sorry Robert it was late at night and I didnt think to record the moves. However for what it's worth, every single game that I have played before between these two computers was under similar conditions ( except for the power saver mode which was ON in the earlier games) was won by the Centurion and might I say most convincingly !!      Hondo
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2008, 11:46AM »
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Quote from: hondo on October 16, 2008, 08:45AM   

I was wondering if anyone would be interested enough to try and replicate these results or am I just getting a "fluke" occurence.    Regards      Hondo

Yes, it would be interesting, if you could post the game!


Robert
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2008, 08:45AM »
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As an update .....I again played the MM against the Centurion with the same results....the MM lost very solidly and the setup was as follows: MM played white (and from the bottom of the board , not the top) and played at the default level (005) with the power saving level now set to -0- so that it could utilize all its power. The Centurion set at the same default level (005) with the same move and time constraints as the MM. I must say I was surprised at the outcome since the MM is rated (ELO) at least 100 pts. higher than my Centurion. I was wondering if anyone would be interested enough to try and replicate these results or am I just getting a "fluke" occurence.    Regards      Hondo
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 06:57PM »
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You can also use the translator available on the google webpage (http://www.google.co.uk/language_tools?hl=en). I don't know which one is better, but at least there are no limitiationsm and if you use the 'translate a webpage' feature, you can have the website you want translated as you browse through it!
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 08:15AM »
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Quote from: hondo on October  4, 2008, 12:55PM   

Tom...thanks for your info w/ref. to the FUN LEVEL BUG and I have found what you said to be a workable way to resolve the issue. Its a shame I never paid more attention to my grandparents who were from German speaking countries as now I would have been able to benefit from reading German. Its a shame there isn't a way to select a "translate Tab" to your language of choice on many of these very interesting sites that utilize many languages (French, German Russian,etc.) and give all sorts of info. that would be helpful. I have a very modest chess computer collection dating back many years and I have been one of the avid but silent readers of this web site. I have become more serious and selective about what I am looking for now and hope to acquire some games not so readily available on the US market place. Thanks for your help and best regards............


I have found the following internet site very useful for translating the German text into English.  Just copy the text, paste it into the translator and away you go!  Sometimes the translations are not perfect, but good enough to get the idea of what they are talking about.  The only problem is the translation is limited to 150 words at a time.

http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #10 on: October 4, 2008, 07:31PM »
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Well I have to tell you I have found the MM to be an unforgiving and brutal playing opponent !! I sometimes think it could have beaten me w/ less force and allowed me to save face but chose to disgrace and humble me...LOL. As an update I did move up one level from default and it  DID beat the Centurion very handidly and impressively. As a side note that was with the power saver at default or PS2 and not -0- . I don't own any computer at this time that can give the MM a run for its money and I will say the games played at the default level against the Cent. were really interesting....  leaving me at times trying to understand why a certain move was made. OK....  again thanks for your help and game info......
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #11 on: October 4, 2008, 06:33PM »
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The MM is a very good machine, probably stronger than I will ever be.
I find it quite aggressive in the sense that many times it exploits the tactical errors that I make and I rarely reach the endgame with just pawns and minor pieces on the board when I play against it , while with a Sapphire I manage to reach endgame but get crushed there.
Even against other strong dedicated unit such as the Mephisto Atlanta and the Star Diamond it can pull some interesting moves and games.

The only problem I can think of is that the lifetime of batteries when the power saving option is set to PS0 is quite short, sometime not long enough to complete a game (especially for tournament level where game could last few hours).
The AC/DC adaptor is required.
I for example had put a set of new batteries 2-3 months ago in my Sapphire II and I still did not change them.

But in the other hand the possibility to set this option is a good choice from the creators, as even with the option set to PS3 the computer still easily beat me and the batteries lifetime is decent.

So I am very happy with this machine.

Now we just wait for the revenge of the unsleashed MM against the Centurion!
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #12 on: October 4, 2008, 06:05PM »
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IT's good to know that you have to manually do this power option reset every time power is disconnected. Some computers use a capacitor to hold certain function in a non volatile memory and the only way you lose it is to hit reset or the ACL  button...  thanks again. By the way....how do you like your MM and have you had any problems with it?
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #13 on: October 4, 2008, 05:57PM »
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The same problem occured when I was trying the MM against the Novag Sapphire II,
Every game I made them play the MM was losing (although its estimated ELO is quite close to the Sapphire II) until I found out about this option.
Every time you disconnet the unit (or remove the batteries) the option is set back to PS2, so every time make sure to set it properly.
Happy to have helped.
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #14 on: October 4, 2008, 05:50PM »
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Dalilov....  You are absolutely correct and I don't know how I missed this option...maybe senility!! By default they set the power at PS2 which greatly hinders the computers ability to "think on your time" and will of course effect the strength of the game it plays. Shame on me for this blunder. I am going into the options section and change the power to level -0- and since I use a wall power adapter to play and not batteries I will have to check to see if the game will hold the changes made after the power is removed or will I have to initiate this option every time I use the computer. Interesting point you have made and I thank you. I did check the Centurion and it does not have this as an option.
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #15 on: October 4, 2008, 04:37PM »
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Quote from: hondo on October  3, 2008, 12:31PM   

Hi all
I thought I would share with you the results of the two matches so far (at the default level for both games) between the two above named chess computers ... the results were surprising to me. First, I have owned the MM for some time and found it to play a very strong game at the default level ( 5 sec's per move) as well as all the other levels excluding the fun levels. I just recently acquired the Centurion and figured it would be an interesting game (it was) to play these two against each other....  in my mind the outcome was already a given !! LOL...  Wrong !!  The MM played white for both games and LOST very solidly to the Centurion...  both games. Maybe I am missing something here...and I prob. am (and intend to do this match up at higher levels of play) but based on the higher ELO of the MM I was totally caught off guard by the results. I would be curious as to what you think......   


Hello,

on the Mephisto Master there is an option called 'Power saving mode' which can change the level of play of the unit greatly. By default I think this option is on PS:2. Here is a quote from the manual:


Quote:
This option effectively extends both the playing range
and battery life of your computer, without affecting the
computer’s time controls. At its PS:0 setting, as described
in Section 2.10, Power Saving Mode is turned off,
and the computer thinks on your time—using the time you
are contemplating your next move to think ahead and
plan its strategies. This is part of what makes your chess
computer such a tough opponent. Power Saving Mode
allows you to make all the levels weaker by switching the
computer into a dormant state and then waking it up
automatically.


It is a bit like selecting ponder ON/OFF and I found out it can make a huge difference in the playing strength.
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #16 on: October 4, 2008, 02:21PM »
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Tom...I never said English was easier.... nor that it's too late ( in this case to teach an old dog a new language) what I implied was that I am prob. too old and not as bright as the proverbial old dog. I can tell you that if it wasn't for my good looks ( gone now) I would have never past English in grammar school or in college days. A wise man once told me that I would do well not to speak and others would only guess I was a fool then to speak and have them know it for sure. With that said and I am sure it was too much....I will go nosey around the internet looking for bargains to buy.....  LOL...take care and best regards again........

PS....I am also a fan of old movies esp. "the old quintessential tough guy" Humphrey Bogart.
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #17 on: October 4, 2008, 01:45PM »
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Quote from: hondo on October  4, 2008, 12:55PM   
... Its a shame I never paid more attention to my grandparents who were from German speaking countries as now I would have been able to benefit from reading German. ...


There is still a way to get into German at least a bit. Never say it's too late. German and English are my favourite languages. German, because it is my mother tongue and English, because this is the language of the great wide world, and the language of the adventurers, and the language of my favourite movies ...! 

And please, English isn't easier than German. German has its dirty grammatical tricks, all right, (most Germans do not master them all!), but English is also peppered with many exceptions and difficult rules and definitely not easy, if someone wants to get into it to a deeper measure.

I think for this reason English and German match perfectly to each other, don't they? So long!
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hondo
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #18 on: October 4, 2008, 12:55PM »
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Tom...thanks for your info w/ref. to the FUN LEVEL BUG and I have found what you said to be a workable way to resolve the issue. Its a shame I never paid more attention to my grandparents who were from German speaking countries as now I would have been able to benefit from reading German. Its a shame there isn't a way to select a "translate Tab" to your language of choice on many of these very interesting sites that utilize many languages (French, German Russian,etc.) and give all sorts of info. that would be helpful. I have a very modest chess computer collection dating back many years and I have been one of the avid but silent readers of this web site. I have become more serious and selective about what I am looking for now and hope to acquire some games not so readily available on the US market place. Thanks for your help and best regards............
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Re:Mephisto Master vs Kasp. Centurion
« Reply #19 on: October 4, 2008, 06:17AM »
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Quote from: hondo on October  4, 2008, 12:37AM   

Well I just advanced both games one level up and the results on this third game were significantly different! As you said Tom the MM is stronger and although the Cent. played a great game, the MM can play very brutal. There are some very nice features w/in the Centurion such as being able to use the study games for a self rating etc. There is a quirk w/in the Centurion. When you play it in the FUN LEVEL and then exit out and go back to regular play it still seems to play at the fun level regardless of what the LCD readout says the level is. If I remember correctly, I read something on this site that also identified that as an issue w/ the MM. The only way I have found so far is to remove the batteries or the source of power from the game....clear the memory and then re-install the batteries and it plays fine again. Have you found that to be the case w/ your game Tom and if so do you have another way to correct this quirk ?


What you are describing here, Hondo, is the so-called "Fun-Level bug", at least it is called so in the German Forum at www.schach-computer.info.

It is described in more detail here:
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/index.php/Bugs, unfortunately only in German. The explanation given here, however, says not much more than what you found out during your play. An advice how to undo the bug is not (yet) provided in the text.

However, there is a thread in the forum, where the bug is discussed once more:
http://www.schachcomputer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=1981
In the first contribution the starter of the thread, "Paisano", explains in the first sentence directly beneath the diagram how he managed to get rid of the bug:

He says analogously: "If you press the ACL-key (not too shortly, at least a few seconds) and continue playing, then the correct move (here: instead of the fun-level move 4. g4 the better one 4. Be2) will be played again."

So, please, try the ACL-button (reset-button) and hopefully your computer will quickly demonstrate its normal strength again.

(I'm afraid I gave my Centurion away years ago so I can't prove this myself.)
« Last Edit: October 4, 2008, 01:31PM by Tom » Report to moderator Logged

The secret of freedom is courage!
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