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  * CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
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Mephisto
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« on: April 22, 2011, 01:01AM »
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He leƭdo su foro en espaƱol muchas veces y estoy agradecido a los miembros de su especie que hicieron comentarios acerca de mi proyecto.
Saludos desde Inglaterra
Bryan
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 06:15AM »
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Quote from: Mephisto on April  2, 2011, 05:53AM   

Hi Oliver
Hope you are ok
Nice to read that you are still trying to developed your beloved Citrine. Please keep us posted as this topic is very interesting.
I've managed to develope a very cheap DIY press sensory board that connects to my 'Intelligent Chess Cube'.
Still in the latter stages of developement but works 100%
Here is a link with photos.
http://theintelligentchesscube.yolasite.com/
Regards from England
Bryan



Mr Mephisto, Users of MECA have loved your hub intelligent ...

http://meca.mundoforo.com/viewtopic.php?p=15732#15732

a lot of users write: G-E-N-I-A-L
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 06:16AM by KarmaZen » Report to moderator Logged
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 06:10AM »
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Quote from: Shamray on April  1, 2011, 10:17PM   

Novag is energonomic i see but solar batteries seem to be difficult to use...


No, nothing problem, itĀ“s very easy...

;-)
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 12:16PM »
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Quote from: Mephisto on April  2, 2011, 05:53AM   

Hi Oliver
Hope you are ok
Nice to read that you are still trying to developed your beloved Citrine. Please keep us posted as this topic is very interesting.
I've managed to develope a very cheap DIY press sensory board that connects to my 'Intelligent Chess Cube'.
Still in the latter stages of developement but works 100%
Here is a link with photos.
http://theintelligentchesscube.yolasite.com/
Regards from England
Bryan




Hi Ā” Bryan


ok, Oliver itĀ“s ok. IĀ“m ok, ;-)

the solar preoyect was end, run ok, i think that the last solar model on market permit use novag citrine directly, not need battery, because have enough energy on a good day.

I'm thinking of creating a project citrine wind, and maybe a crank by removing one of those flashlights that originate in Singapore, could feed a couple of circuits as elevators and citrine think a rally, delivering power through the crank, and after that energy lasted the time you think the human,

could be called "Novag citrine sport": d

in any case be an ecological citrine not need nuclear energy never again.




uhmm...

http://theintelligentchesscube.yolasite.com/

wow Ā” that is very good, this itĀ“s a lot of job work, but the result is very good...



I will read more carefully this link,

a big greeting from Spain to brian and comunity boardnations users,

oliver
[i][/i]
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Mephisto
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #4 on: April 2, 2011, 05:53AM »
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Hi Oliver
Hope you are ok
Nice to read that you are still trying to developed your beloved Citrine. Please keep us posted as this topic is very interesting.
I've managed to develope a very cheap DIY press sensory board that connects to my 'Intelligent Chess Cube'.
Still in the latter stages of developement but works 100%
Here is a link with photos.
http://theintelligentchesscube.yolasite.com/
Regards from England
Bryan
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Shamray
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #5 on: April 1, 2011, 10:17PM »
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Novag is energonomic i see but solar batteries seem to be difficult to use...
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #6 on: April 1, 2011, 10:14PM »
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Novag is energonomic i see but solar batteries seem to be difficult to use...
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #7 on: September 5, 2009, 06:09PM »
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Now I'm thinking an assembly that does not need to use batteries either, only a solar panel and a small circuit with a large capacitor, allowing use citrine, no battery charging times, obviously, is +50 hours of battery time more than enough, but I think it's interesting to get a rig that only require a light source, although this is artificial, and a solar panel, no battery, using the energy at the same time it is produced by plaque.

It may be possible, for I have seen solar panels for cars, 30 cm * 10 cm and very thin, used to recharge car batteries, and are capable of delivering 12 Volt and 125 mA in the best conditions, which possibly guarantee us at least 30 mA and + 8 Volts under conditions of cloudy days or use of artificial light, at first all the energy surplus is used to recharge the large capacitor through a transistor, if the primary source fails, use momentarily the energy stored in the capacitor, which is the correct voltage and deliver the right degree, possibly for more than 30 ~ 60 minutes without any kind of auxiliary power, and obviously with the lights out, though admittedly it is hard to play, the point is not that, but stabilize the supply of solar panel.

The cost should be much lower, as are the more expensive lithium batteries, which the system lacks, and there is no life cycle of these batteries.

If I had a good destination, I will tell you something.

greetings from Spain, Oliver
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2009, 06:32AM »
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Oliver
About this label of the tranformer, that is definitely wrong. That transformer does not have a 9 vdc output, but you can use it as this voltage then goes to an IC voltage regulator that turns it to 9 vdc for citrine PCB. The maximum power that dissipate that IC is not more than 0.5 watts at citrine full load wich is far away from the maximum for that IC. Anyway i will test my citrine with batteries using your good work.

batteries regards
Ricardo
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 03:42PM »
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Quote from: ricard60 on August 29, 2009, 02:46PM   

Well Oliver,
I've seen that all your questions have been answered.
So you can use your 15 volts transformer.

low power regards
Ricardo


well, Ricard, we may be able to "accept" like a pet an octopus... ;-)  but...

Anyway I'm very clear, if the original AC/DC Novag was labeled a 220V-15V, although the computer require less voltage, there would be no problem... but...

but in his way, in which the label indicates AC/DC 220V-9V, and indeed this thread past 66%, shows that I can not trust the useful life of this source of energy.

octopus

(it is obvious that this device does not have any type of security control at any time and can increase its output offset infamous other 66 %)

offset regards,

Oliver.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 03:46PM by KarmaZen » Report to moderator Logged
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 02:46PM »
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Well Oliver,
I've seen that all your questions have been answered.
So you can use your 15 volts transformer.

low power regards
Ricardo
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 11:11AM »
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Quote from: chubbyupchuck on August 29, 2009, 12:29AM   

Oliver,
Ahh OK,
...
Cheers

chubby



Well, it's an interesting list, the fact is that most have enough precision, although there are some black beans on the list ;-)

I very much appreciate the advice about the readings on the PCB, actually you are right, read the readings near the CPU is dangerous, but the idea was to keep track of connection and read the voltage off the cpu, not to make some small slip causing any short circuit. Looking at the PCB, you can follow the path of power pins and take readings from a distance.

Anyway, thank you very much for the advice and good .. we'll see, I also think it will be the same readings.

bye, bye... ;-)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 12:03PM by KarmaZen » Report to moderator Logged
chubbyupchuck
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 12:29AM »
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Oliver,

Ahh OK, sorry I did not understand.  I took a look at some of the supplies I have around the house.  The unconnected voltages I found were...


  • 9VDC 300mA unbranded multi voltage power supply - 9.1VDC
  • 9VAC 300mA unbranded multi voltage power supply - 9VAC
  • 16VDC 4.5A IBM laptop psu - 17VDC
  • 19.5VDC 3.9A Sony laptop psu - 19.4VDC
  • 12VDC 1A Netgear router - 17VDC
  • 12VDC 1A Linksys router - 17VDC
  • 5.3VDC 650mA unbranded - 5.2VDC
  • 7.5VDC 200mA TFA weather station - 12VDC


I think the most relevant of these is the last one.  The weather station (http://www.tfa-dostmann.de/CD_2009/img/049.pdf) is made by an independent low volume manufacturer and costs around 200Euro.

So whilst it would seem that the regulation of the Novag supply is poor, it is not the worst!

I was surprised at the accuracy of the unbranded 9VDC supply I bought in an electronics shop.  It comes with a number of connection tips and can be set to be both centre positive and centre negative.  If you are worried I would suggest picking up something similar, mine cost 15-20Euro.

I would be very cautious about measuring voltages on the cpu pins themselves.  It looks to be a surface mount device and the pins will be very close together.  The possibility of shorting the power to adjacent pins will be high, which may damage the board.

Cheers

chubby
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 05:18PM »
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Quote from: chubbyupchuck on August 28, 2009, 01:59PM   

Pleasure Hondo,

Oliver,

The standard simple (canonical) voltage regulator is the LM78xx series...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/78xx

The regulator in the Citrine is almost certainly NOT an LM78xx, but it does give an idea as to the performance of such devices...

...

Really don't worry.  Just enjoy the chess!

chubby


FANTASTIC chubby a great explanation but you are very may be somewhat optimistic... ;-) (and I am something pessimists...)

We really felt more relaxed but..., obviously the first objective of this modding was not on problems of tensions, but rather was a comment added.


In any case, the portability and the possibility, given the low consumption have this computer, using batteries is much more practical than any DC adapter,

Anyway, when I have some free time, I would test voltage readings at different points on the board, actually in the previous review data are the info about  pins on the cpu and we can use a tester to test the voltage at various points, and compare this to when we use batteries when using the AC / DC, if everything is correct, readings of voltage components will be exactly the same, thanks to the use of the IC chip.

Obviously also said in the review, which does not seem right that reversing the polarity Novag standard in the market, placing the positive pole on the outside of the plug, really the intention of this alone is to divide and confuse, not making more consistent and secure the use of the machine, but more dependent on its own power adapter. Why do they do?, Because they can ... as you rightly say.

But I also answer..., because what we have here info?, by expressing a criticism ?, because that WE can also ... ;-) (



(anyway, your load on the limit of work for this model are based on the power source is working properly and get a peak voltage in the primary circuit. The question is whether to trust that the the power supply will work fine, after they both be in agreement about its poor quality. An error in this component, a polarity reversal or a peak, "inferior" to 220, but greater than 30 V? or 20? i donĀ“t know..., for example, could break the machine, despite not having any problems in the voltage of 220V ...

Well, as I said I will review the documentation I have, to locate the power pins of cpu and check the tension in both cases; it may well be that Novag use the circuit IC, a simple voltage reducer, very basic circuit, based on his own AC / DC, varying its voltage directly and linearly to the input voltage... itĀ“s need check it.

I would check it in future, if I (will ?) find significant variations in the readings of the PCB cpu power, after the circuit IC, and it will comment...)

a greeting, from spain. Oliver


PD: In summary, although I think I understand your arguments, I find it hard to trust a power supply that is labeled with a 220V-9V, and actually it's delivering 15, which represents 66% more than labeling without any variation in the primary circuit (220),  ... who assures us that this adapter does not supply fails again and after a while another 66% above 15 V. ..? In this case, some basic regulatory DC bursts, IC?, and the computer of ~ +300 ā‚¬... too.

long live solar batterys ;-) , uhmm... although Batteries may also explode ... ... & we can also use a hand-crank power source ... as some controls TV or rechargeable flashlights. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 10:34PM by KarmaZen » Report to moderator Logged
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 04:52PM »
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Quote from: hondo on August 28, 2009, 12:47PM   

Hi Chubby... I enjoyed reading your response and couldn't agree more with what you said nor could I have said it any better! In addition to your guess or hunch about IC4 being the regulator that was my best guess also but I didn't want to go out on the limb for fear that some one would mess with it the wrong way and their game would go poof and I would be somewhat guilty...LOL. I think there may be a language barrier at least from my perspective in that Oliver my be missing the finer point which we are both trying to make with regards to his power supply and the function of an in circuit regulator. I guess the only other way to say it is if it's working ok..... don't mess with it or worry about when it will crash. I would spend more time trying to play it then fret over over voltage frying the circuitry! Ok enough said...  best regards to all...  hondo


honde hi, yes, you are right, the language may be a barrier. I had understood that your question about whether the individual would have the Novag adapter stabilizer circuit within the power supply.

When I clarify something else Ricard60 response to clumsy with the English like me, so I put the links on the motherboard, these pictures already have more than two years and belong to another review I conducted years ago.

In any case, always be more comfortable and much safer not to use AC / DC adapters, but nothing that consumption of citrine not justify in any case Novag not installed the ability to use feed through batteries.

In another vein, I have many AC / DC of different devices and none are hotter when unloaded, but are connected, that of Novag this "hot" even when the machine is turned off, implying consumption vacuum and possibly a shorter duration of this transformer.

Power supplies may be more components that have evolved, perhaps due to increased use of mobile phones ...

careless greetings from spain.

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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 01:59PM »
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Pleasure Hondo,

Oliver,

The standard simple (canonical) voltage regulator is the LM78xx series...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/78xx

The regulator in the Citrine is almost certainly NOT an LM78xx, but it does give an idea as to the performance of such devices...

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/LM/LM7805.pdf

Maximum input voltage - 35V
Dropout voltage (minimum difference between input and output) - 2V
Peak current - 2.2A
Maximum operating temperature - 125 celcius
Thermal resistance (without a heatsink) - 65 celcius / watt
Maximum power disipation (at 25 celcius ambient without heatsink) - 1.53 watts ((125-25) / 65).

So if we assume that your external power supply has a linear relationship between input and output voltage, with no protection (a massive simplification), and the actual internal regulator has roughly the characteristics of an LM7805.  In order to exceed the the internal regulator's limits your mains would have to spike to 513VAC (220*35/15).  Even this would probably not break the regulator if it was only a spike.  And the regulator will protect the rest of the Citrine from the spike (a simplification).

And if your mains did have a 513VAC spike on it, your chess set is likely to be the least of your worries. 

As to why the Novag power supplies are so shoddy, the simple answer is because they can be.  More accurate voltage regulation would not improve the customer's experience in any measurable way, and in 99.99% of cases would not even be noticed.

As to why Novag charges 15Euros for such shoddy PSUs, the simple answer is because they can.  People are willing to pay for the perception of quality and piece of mind that the two items are compatible.

Really don't worry.  Just enjoy the chess!

chubby
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 12:47PM »
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Hi Chubby... I enjoyed reading your response and couldn't agree more with what you said nor could I have said it any better! In addition to your guess or hunch about IC4 being the regulator that was my best guess also but I didn't want to go out on the limb for fear that some one would mess with it the wrong way and their game would go poof and I would be somewhat guilty...LOL. I think there may be a language barrier at least from my perspective in that Oliver my be missing the finer point which we are both trying to make with regards to his power supply and the function of an in circuit regulator. I guess the only other way to say it is if it's working ok..... don't mess with it or worry about when it will crash. I would spend more time trying to play it then fret over over voltage frying the circuitry! Ok enough said...  best regards to all...  hondo
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 10:00AM »
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Quote from: chubbyupchuck on August 28, 2009, 12:34AM   

Hey all,

I think it is important to remember a couple of points...

  • In the grand scheme of things Novag are a low volume producer, doubly so for the top of the line Citrine.
  • Your ship is always built by the lowest bidder.


I suspect that none of the electronics inside the Citrine require more than 5V to operate, and probably will require 3V (e.g. VLSI H8 core).  Now as has already been pointed out virtually all electronics equipment has a voltage regulator on the power input stage.  This does a number of things.  As well as providing a stable supply to sensitive components, it also protects them from numpties using the wrong power supply from damaging the equipment.  This has a beneficial side effect in that it relaxes the engineering requirements on the external power supply.  And from there economics takes over.  Given that virtually any PSU supplying 50mA at 7.5V or more will do for the Citrine, as a manufacturer which do you choose?  Well the cheapest.  And which one is that?  The same one that everyone else uses 9V 300mA, they are everywhere.  That way you keep your manufacturing cost as low as possible, and can increase profit, or reduce prices if a pesky competitor comes along.

As to your concerns that dropping the voltage from ~15V to whatever is needed on the board will reduce the life span of the board, I doubt it will have a significant effect.  Worst case you are looking at the regulator having to dissipate ~0.3Watts ((15V-3V) * 0.026A = 0.312 Watts).  Virtually any commercial regulator will do this without a heatsink all day and all night.  Also bear in mind that the minimum drop across a regulator is around 2V in order to get a stable output supply, so it has to dissipate around 0.05W in order to work.  Factor in a minimal engineering tolerance on the supply and the minimum dissipation I would expect to see is 0.1W.

So where is this mythical regulator?  Well looking at the first photo of the board (I don't have a Citrine) I think IC4 is a candidate.  This has the small number of pins normally associated with a regulator, is located reasonably close to the DC in, has a number of passive components located close to it on the reverse side of the board and seems to have a thumping great power (ground?) jumper wire terminating near it.

So I don't think there is likely to much to be concerned about.

chubby



Thank you very much for your answer, the question is: what is the limit of tolerance regulardor IC?, Or any input voltage can not be rectified, I also think that an internal regulator will prevent this, but it is rare for Novag engineers mentioned the power supply voltage drop when in operation and to limit the guarantee to his erratic use of AC/DC.

However the intention of modding is not that, but to avoid having to connect the AC machine, being more portable. Besides this change does not need batteries, then recharge with solar energy.

And did not need to disassemble the machine ... ;-)

solars regards... from spain.

oliver
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 12:34AM »
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Hey all,

I think it is important to remember a couple of points...

  • In the grand scheme of things Novag are a low volume producer, doubly so for the top of the line Citrine.
  • Your ship is always built by the lowest bidder.


I suspect that none of the electronics inside the Citrine require more than 5V to operate, and probably will require 3V (e.g. VLSI H8 core).  Now as has already been pointed out virtually all electronics equipment has a voltage regulator on the power input stage.  This does a number of things.  As well as providing a stable supply to sensitive components, it also protects them from numpties using the wrong power supply from damaging the equipment.  This has a beneficial side effect in that it relaxes the engineering requirements on the external power supply.  And from there economics takes over.  Given that virtually any PSU supplying 50mA at 7.5V or more will do for the Citrine, as a manufacturer which do you choose?  Well the cheapest.  And which one is that?  The same one that everyone else uses 9V 300mA, they are everywhere.  That way you keep your manufacturing cost as low as possible, and can increase profit, or reduce prices if a pesky competitor comes along.

As to your concerns that dropping the voltage from ~15V to whatever is needed on the board will reduce the life span of the board, I doubt it will have a significant effect.  Worst case you are looking at the regulator having to dissipate ~0.3Watts ((15V-3V) * 0.026A = 0.312 Watts).  Virtually any commercial regulator will do this without a heatsink all day and all night.  Also bear in mind that the minimum drop across a regulator is around 2V in order to get a stable output supply, so it has to dissipate around 0.05W in order to work.  Factor in a minimal engineering tolerance on the supply and the minimum dissipation I would expect to see is 0.1W.

So where is this mythical regulator?  Well looking at the first photo of the board (I don't have a Citrine) I think IC4 is a candidate.  This has the small number of pins normally associated with a regulator, is located reasonably close to the DC in, has a number of passive components located close to it on the reverse side of the board and seems to have a thumping great power (ground?) jumper wire terminating near it.

So I don't think there is likely to much to be concerned about.

chubby
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Re:* CITRINE Novag solar battery modding> 100 hours ON-review
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2009, 12:10PM »
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Quote from: ricard60 on August 27, 2009, 10:49AM   

Nice work Oliver,

I test my transformer from citrine but is a 120 V 60 hz to 9VDC. With out load the output is 12.47VDC. I have not open my citrine but for those who had you can follow the lines over the PCB that comes from the input voltage  and maybe you will  find an IC voltage regulator.

good job regards
Ricardo


thanks...

Ok, yes, but the question is why permit a lot of over Volts...?...

here you can see PCB circuit...

PCB I

PCB II

PCB III

PCB IV


Anyway, they did not say that this tension is corrected internally by citrine, they stated that the transformer load voltage lost due to the consumption of the computer... but it only lost >0.5 V. (And what happens if the IC would be corrupted and indeed fall to 15 V or 12 V?)...

Citrine runs OK with Volts a lot of more down, with 5,5 run, but see LCD itĀ“dificult, and with 7,5 V all itĀ“s OK.

postcript: by the way, does not it seem odd that a 120 V power supply for Novag = 12.47 V. and in 220 V DC and delivers 15 V.DC ...? it is the same AC / DC?

thanks regards...
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