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   Author  Topic: The longest opening  (Read 1159 times)
mychess
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Re:The longest opening
« on: September 1, 2009, 09:42AM »
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Hello,
Today my Excel Club (not Mach  III  
played an 52 ply (half-move)opening :
E2E4 E7E5
G1F3 B8C6
F1B5 A7A6
B5A4 G8F6
E1G1 F8E7
F1E1 B7B5
A4B3 E8G8
C2C3 D7D5
E4D5 F6D5
... 
Someone does have a more deepest line ?  (Excel or other) ?

With Fidelity ;-)

Mychess
« Last Edit: September 1, 2009, 01:27PM by mychess » Report to moderator Logged
Mike Watters
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2005, 02:08AM »
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Quote:
I love my BBC Acorn B too! It must be still somewhere in our house (.. but where .. damned chess computers  ). Maybe we two have also a little home computer collection?

Viele Gre,
Bernhard
Ah. Happy days Bernhard. Taking the lid off for the umpteenth time to put in a new ROM program. I did not think that they sold many outside Britain?

Sadly each time I got a new computer the old one was traded in, given away or dumped. Sinclair Spectrum, Commodore 64, Commodore 128, Amiga etc etc........

Viele Gre
Mike
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_hard
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2005, 01:49AM »
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Mike,
Quote from: Mike Watters on March 20, 2005, 12:26AM   

And within about 12-15 months this one. 32 KB of ROM. My wife still used it occasionally for tutoring until a mid 1990s and I am not allowed to throw it away in case she ever wants to use it again.

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=29

I love my BBC Acorn B too! It must be still somewhere in our house (.. but where .. damned chess computers  ). Maybe we two have also a little home computer collection?

Viele Gre,
Bernhard
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Mike Watters
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2005, 12:26AM »
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Olivier

This was my first personal computer. A massive 4 KB of ROM and 32 KB of RAM.

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=174

And within about 12-15 months this one. 32 KB of ROM. My wife still used it occasionally for tutoring until a mid 1990s and I am not allowed to throw it away in case she ever wants to use it again.

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=29

The development of chess computers was the same story of software and hardware progress going hand in hand, and ever cheaper and/or bigger chips.

In playing these chess computers you must wonder about these claims of opening lines 24 or 26 ply deep. Usually even the Classic lines of Grandmasters down the years run out by 10 ply. You have to look long and hard for 20+ ply lines in my experience.

All the best
Mike
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mychess
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2005, 04:39PM »
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I think about 3 reasons for the growing of opening book.
The first reason is that opening are only copy of "books" (at the beginning, then they needed to test that at the end of the line, the program understand the position, for example gambits).It's not expensive to copy opening lines on ROM.
The second reason is a commercial reason, big opening give big program (they didn't specified that the size of opening book is included in the size of the program) and buyers compare these sizes (programs and openings).

At least, the explosion of personal computer in 80-84 (Tandy, Atari,Apple,Commodore,Amiga...) decrease the price of the ROM.

Olivier.
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Mike Watters
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2005, 04:18PM »
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Quote from: mychess on March 19, 2005, 03:56PM   

Hi Mike,

Yes, I'm looking for the deepest opening for each of the firsts chess computers.
Datas for CB9 and CB16 is interesting.
Do you think that 1345 * 20 = 26900 and 16100 positions for one part, and 381*30=11430 and 8160 positions for the others are explains by the transposition of moves , who are not recognized at that time.
37% of moves give the same positions for CB16, compare to  28% for the CB9. I think it's logical that deeper opening lines generate less transpostions.
What you think about ?

Olivier.

Yes I agree with you. The difference is due to transpositions and what you say is logical.

It is interesting how rapidly they advanced in the early years with opening books. Up until late 1979-1980 they were either non existent or very limited in breadth and depth.
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Mike Watters
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2005, 04:05PM »
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Olivier

Some further information on opening lines from 1981-83 chess computers.

Mephisto II Portable - 280 lines, 6 to 26 ply
Mephisto II ESB - 320 lines, 6 to 26 ply
Mephisto III - 500 lines, average 10 ply
Fidelity Sensory CC9 - 64 lines, 4 to 24 ply
Conchess - 55 lines, 4 to 10 ply
Scisys Mark IV - 300 lines, average 6 ply
Great Game Machine/Steinitz - 400 lines, average 6 ply

Gruenfeld Openings Cartridge - 3,000 positions, 490 lines, 8 to 42 ply

Some of this information comes from a "Competence" comparative report and I would not vouch for its complete accuracy.

From what I have found out the Gruenfeld cartridge probably takes the prize for the deepest lines. It was released in 1982.

Mike
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mychess
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2005, 03:56PM »
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Hi Mike,

Yes, I'm looking for the deepest opening for each of the firsts chess computers.
Datas for CB9 and CB16 is interesting.
Do you think that 1345 * 20 = 26900 and 16100 positions for one part, and 381*30=11430 and 8160 positions for the others are explains by the transposition of moves , who are not recognized at that time.
37% of moves give the same positions for CB16, compare to  28% for the CB9. I think it's logical that deeper opening lines generate less transpostions.
What you think about ?

Olivier.
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Mike Watters
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2005, 03:22PM »
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That made me think of response time as well. I know that for the CompuChess 1, the manual states that in level 6 it can take up to two days for the computer to respond!

Ismenio
Ismenio

In those days, 1980/81 I sometimes left a chess computer on for many hours, sometimes a day or two, working on a position. It would probably not get beyond 5 or 6 ply and the results were rarely very profound. Just occasionally it would find a checkmate you had missed or some other good move that was worthwhile. So often it would be the same ordinary move it started with.

Olivier I do not know the answer to your question. You are looking for examples of deep lines in the early opening books, yes?

I have a CB16 openings cartridge which fits the Sensory CC9 and Elite A/S etc (say 1983) and that contains 16,100 positions, 1345 lines, to an average depth of 20 ply. However the CB9 cartridge, which was sold at the same time as an alternative, had a narrower and deeper opening book - 8,160 positions, 381 lines and an average depth of 30 ply. That must be one of the deepest opening books at that time. But of course it is a cartridge.

All the best
Mike
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Ismenio
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Re:The longest opening
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2005, 09:43AM »
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Interesting question. That made me think of response time as well. I know that for the CompuChess 1, the manual states that in level 6 it can take up to two days for the computer to respond!

Ismenio
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mychess
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The longest opening
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2005, 07:43AM »
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Hi,

Do you have informations about the longest opening in the first chess machines ?
For example, Constellation have, from the user's manual, 3000 plies.But what is the longest ?

At yours marks...
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