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  Novag Super Expert C
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   Author  Topic: Novag Super Expert C  (Read 1771 times)
Robert Weck
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Re:Novag Super Expert C
« on: March 7, 2010, 11:59PM »
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Quote:

Quote from: Sargon VI on March  7, 2010, 10:35AM   


Yes the max selectivity is 7 and the default sel is 3 !

interesting; so i will have a look at mine too (maybe my memory is faulty!  )

Quote:

In position karpov-chandler (Qxh2+ !!):

here are the results with all selectivities :

Normal level/ Infinite level (Some differences)

Usually those tests are done with infinite level

Sel 1 : 5'28" / 6'31"
Sel 2 : 4'15" / 4'57"
Sel 3 : 2'56" / 3'32"  ( Super Forte B 5 mhz: 4'35")
Sel 4 : 2'32" / 3'12"
Sel 5 : 1'54" / 2'28"
Sel 6 : 1'27" / 2'05"
Sel 7 : 1'27" / 2'05"  ( Super Forte B 5 mhz: 2'50")

Ok my SE run with 6 Mhz but even if my SE was a 5 Mhz, times wouldn't be the sames with my results, isn't it ?

Quote:

no, your SE runs 20% faster, so you have to correct the results: with 5 MHz your SE would have taken 254 seconds compared with 275 secs on the SF B 5 with sel 3; with sel 7 it would have been 150" compared to 170"

If you want it the other way round (the SF B running at 6 MHz) you have to divide its times (in secs) by 1.2

If i compare your results to Thorstens SE C results, i would say, your SE must be a B (the default sel level "3" also points to that)

Quote:

So I've done others tests replaying SE B and SE C's parts and  my SE gives somes goods responses as a B or as a C, but not all.

http://thorstenczub.de/oldie3.html

In Rubinstein's position ( Rxc3 !!)
My results are :

Sel 1 : 7'14" / 10'07"
Sel 2 : 5'49" /  7'23"
Sel 3 : 5'08" /  6'35"  (Super Forte B 5mhz: 7'45")

here your SF C at 5 MHz would have needed 474"; compared with 465", this come quite close...

Sel 4 : 4'36" /  4'33"
Sel 5 : 4'13" /  4'38"
Sel 6 : 3'51" /  4'01"
Sel 7 : 3'47" /  3'50"  (Super Forte B 5mhz: 3'40")

ok, this does not fit; have you tried it more than one time? often such tests give different results on various tries

Quote:

It is possible that 2 program versions exist for SE C model ?

Yes, there are different versions, but i don't know, if they would give this results. To find out, which version number you have, you need the Novag distributor box. Then you can connect a SF/SE to a PC and with a terminal program you can get this info.

Quote:

(SE C without C on the display or with C)

As a SF/SE A or B could easily be upgraded to a C by replacing the EPROMs this is not a evidence. For example i once "downgraded" a SF C to B, as i already had another SF C...


best regards,
Robert
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Sargon VI
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Re:Novag Super Expert C
« Reply #1 on: March 7, 2010, 10:35AM »
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Hello Robert & mclane,


Quote:
have you tried to find the max selectivity? If it is 5, then it is obviously a "B"; if it is 7, then it would surprise me! (if the default sel. is 3)

Yes the max selectivity is 7 and the default sel is 3 !

In position karpov-chandler (Qxh2+ !!):

here are the results with all selectivities :

Normal level/ Infinite level (Some differences)

Sel 1 : 5'28" / 6'31"
Sel 2 : 4'15" / 4'57"
Sel 3 : 2'56" / 3'32"  ( Super Forte B 5 mhz: 4'35")
Sel 4 : 2'32" / 3'12"
Sel 5 : 1'54" / 2'28"
Sel 6 : 1'27" / 2'05"
Sel 7 : 1'27" / 2'05"  ( Super Forte B 5 mhz: 2'50")

Ok my SE run with 6 Mhz but even if my SE was a 5 Mhz, times wouldn't be the sames with my results, isn't it ?

So I've done others tests replaying SE B and SE C's parts and  my SE gives somes goods responses as a B or as a C, but not all.

http://thorstenczub.de/oldie3.html

In Rubinstein's position ( Rxc3 !!)
My results are :

Sel 1 : 7'14" / 10'07"
Sel 2 : 5'49" /  7'23"
Sel 3 : 5'08" /  6'35"  (Super Forte B 5mhz: 7'45")
Sel 4 : 4'36" /  4'33"
Sel 5 : 4'13" /  4'38"
Sel 6 : 3'51" /  4'01"
Sel 7 : 3'47" /  3'50"  (Super Forte B 5mhz: 3'40")

It is possible that 2 program versions exist for SE C model ?
(SE C without C on the display or with C)

Thanks for your answers !

Best regards,

Olivier
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mclane
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Re:Novag Super Expert C
« Reply #2 on: March 3, 2010, 01:21AM »
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Quote from: Sargon VI on March  2, 2010, 10:45AM   

Oupssss ! Sorry ! I change language !

Hello Robert,
I tried to reset for 10 seconds as you tell me but the selectivity is still 3 by default.
On the website of Alain Zanchetta, the instruction's guide of the Super Expert B indicates a maximum of selectivity is 7 with a default selectivity is 3.
Is it possible that maybe some Super Expert B 's eproms exists in my Super Expert C?
Is there another possibility to find the difference between the "B" and the "C"?
Thanks for your answer,

best regards,

Olivier



i think you can find it out via input a position.

in early times of computerchess i wrote an article about
superforte B/C.

there are example positions. you should be able to find out which version you have by setting up the position and let it run on your machine.

http://thorstenczub.de/oldie3.html

in position karpov-chandler:

W:Kg1 Qe2 Rc1f1 Bg2d4 Ne1 a2b3e3g3h2
B:Kg8 Qh3 Rc8e6 Bb8f5 Ne4 a7c6d5f7g4 

Chandler  did not move the winning move 28...Qxh2+ !!
and moved  Nxg3 instead.


    Cray Blitz                                            1"  (Großrechner)
    Mach III Master                      in      19"  (16Biter !)
    Super-Forte B 5Mhz sel.7    in    2'50"  (8Biter !!)
                                        sel.3    in    4'35"
    Fidelity Display 12Mhz          in    7'38" 
    Super-Forte A (sel. on)        in    25'50"  (Der VorgĂ€nger)
    MM II                                        in    35'50"
    Fidelity Display 3Mhz            in    35'58"
    Academy                                in    38'40"
    Super Forte (sel. off)              in    40'43"
    Elite A/S                                  in    54'
    Mach II C+                              in  1h04'
    Super Constellation              in  3h58'
    Analyst B,D 8Mhz          not in 13h
    Excell 68000                  not in  1h
    Rebell 5.0                      not in  2h30'

you can see the superforte A with sel.off with 40'43" for
Qxh2.
While it will play the move with selective ON in
25'50".
The result of the B version is: 4'35 with sel.3 and
2'50" with selective 7.


super forte C in the same position solves it in
SFC ------->      39'10"  sel.3  and  12'10"  sel.7

so one can conclude the B version was good in tactics while the C version is weaker, but stronger in overall play.

now you have results for
A/B/C version with different selective switches.

i guess you should be able to find out which version you have by measuring the time for the moves.
« Last Edit: March 3, 2010, 01:22AM by mclane » Report to moderator Logged
Robert Weck
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Re:Novag Super Expert C
« Reply #3 on: March 3, 2010, 01:00AM »
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Hello Olivier,


Quote from: Sargon VI on March  2, 2010, 10:45AM   

Oupssss ! Sorry ! I change language !

no problem; i looks, that i would have understood most of your answer (and for the rest, there still is babelfish!  )

Quote:

I tried to reset for 10 seconds as you tell me but the selectivity is still 3 by default.

This would point to version "B"

Quote:

On the website of Alain Zanchetta, the instruction's guide of the Super Expert B indicates a maximum of selectivity is 7 with a default selectivity is 3.

Ah, i see, you have found this in the US manual? In my german addon for version "C" (you can find it on Alains pages too), there is no such indicator.

But my Super Expert B and SuFo B both have a max. selectivity of 5, so i would say, there is an error in the manual. The US manual for the "B" is also just an addon, so it should refer to an early version. And i don't think, that they went from max. sel. 7 back to 5 in later program versions.

Quote:

Is it possible that maybe some Super Expert B 's eproms exists in my Super Expert C?

Yes, it is possible to change an original SE "B" to a "C" just by replacing the EPROMs (all versions are changeable within the complete SE series A-C; i did that myself a few times)

SE A-C have all the same hardware (maybe with a different speed, but that does not matter), so thats no problem!

Quote:

Is there another possibility to find the difference between the "B" and the "C"?

have you tried to find the max selectivity? If it is 5, then it is obviously a "B"; if it is 7, then it would surprise me! (if the default sel. is 3)

Another way would be comparing some test positions...


best regards,
Robert
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Sargon VI
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Re:Novag Super Expert C
« Reply #4 on: March 2, 2010, 10:45AM »
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Oupssss ! Sorry ! I change language !

Hello Robert,
I tried to reset for 10 seconds as you tell me but the selectivity is still 3 by default.
On the website of Alain Zanchetta, the instruction's guide of the Super Expert B indicates a maximum of selectivity is 7 with a default selectivity is 3.
Is it possible that maybe some Super Expert B 's eproms exists in my Super Expert C?
Is there another possibility to find the difference between the "B" and the "C"?
Thanks for your answer,

best regards,

Olivier
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Sargon VI
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Re:Novag Super Expert C
« Reply #5 on: March 2, 2010, 06:41AM »
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Bonjour Robert,
J'ai essayé de réinitialisation pendant environ 10 secondes, mais la sélectivité est toujours 3 par défaut.
Sur le site d'Alain Zanchetta, le guide d'instruction de Super Expert B indique 7 max.selectivity avec une sélectivité par défaut est 3.
Est-il possible qu'il y ait peut-ĂȘtre quelques eproms sur la B Expert Super dans mon modĂšle Super Expert C?
Y at-il une autre possibilité pour faire la différence entre B et C.
Merci de votre réponse.

Cordialement,

Olivier
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Robert Weck
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Re:Novag Super Expert C
« Reply #6 on: March 2, 2010, 01:43AM »
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Quote from: Sargon VI on March  1, 2010, 10:45AM   

Everything indicates that it is a model C but when I light the device, the selectivity is 3 by default while I read somewhere that the selectivity is 5 by default for the model C.

did you reset it before? (holding the switch on the bottom for about 10 seconds)

The SE holds its settings in memory when you press "New Game"

Another way to find out, what you have:
The max. selectivity for the C-programm is 7 (for B it is 5; it's default selectivity is 3)

Try to raise the selectivity to the max, then you will see, which program it is...


best regards,
Robert
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Novag Super Expert C
« Reply #7 on: March 1, 2010, 10:45AM »
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Hello to all,
I have a Novag Super Expert with C on the display and the model 902 below the device.
Everything indicates that it is a model C but when I light the device, the selectivity is 3 by default while I read somewhere that the selectivity is 5 by default for the model C.
I hope that the Novag specialist can help me!!
Thank you in advance!

Best regards
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