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  Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
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Mike Watters
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« on: November 13, 2005, 04:15PM »
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Chris

That is a good match up, I think, if you give the BD a reasonable amount of time. I shall be very interested in the result. Preference here for the Novag's chance because I think that the early machines may be weaker than their published ratings.

I was unsure in my own mind about Eric's and Mike Healey's estimate of the Elo value of the Queen. There must be some information out there on the subject. Could not chess engine tournaments be set up to test the piece Elo values? But would it be a different Elo figure for chess computers and for humans, who would be affected by the psychology of receiving or giving a handicap?



All the best
Mike
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Chris
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2005, 12:24PM »
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Hi Mike, 


Quote:

Chris, that game was from SS 31. Super System III was a bit unlucky to get its Queen trapped. It was sad to see one of my all time favourites fall that way. 




LOL, I didn't think this would take you long and it didn't! 


Quote:

It is an interesting question that Eric asked at the end of that game:-

What Elo difference does giving Queen odds make?

I wonder if anyone has managed to come up with an answer to the Elo value of pieces? 


Yes, good question. The article suggests between 800-1000 elo, with Eric opting for the higher figure.

Now, if I can find a bit of time over the next few days  -  I might just play a few games to test this out (but obviously not enough to be statistically meaningful!).

My Novag Diamond 2 rated  2131 per SS (sans Queen) against say the trusty old Boris Diplomat weighing in at a mighty ...... 1150 on the current SS list....... a rating gap of only 981.

4 games - any thoughts about what the score might be?  or perhaps an alternative 'weakie' opponent ?

Best wishes


Chris
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Martin
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2005, 08:50AM »
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Hi Mike,

thanks for the compliment and your help with the link. I'm sometimes a tad clumsy in these things...

Nietsche and Henne work, as far as I know, for a software company. Sadly they don't write chess programs any more...

Re the queen value: If someone has plenty of time a match between programs of different strength could give an answer... 

Best,
Martin
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Mike Watters
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2005, 12:42AM »
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Hi All

Chris, that game was from SS 31. Super System III was a bit unlucky to get its Queen trapped. It was sad to see one of my all time favourites fall that way. 
Though the checkmate is neat and very efficient along with the rest of Portorose's play (grudging respect).

It is an interesting question that Eric asked at the end of that game:-

What Elo difference does giving Queen odds make?

I wonder if anyone has managed to come up with an answer to the Elo value of pieces? 

All the best
Mike

Ismenio the Superman cartoon is great.
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Mike Watters
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2005, 12:23AM »
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Hi Martin

Beautiful pictures. 
and the machines look very pretty. I shall put up your link again in case anyone misses it :-

http://home.arcor.de/mars-chess/

for some reason if you edit a post here the link is not active anymore unless you  'insert hyperlink'.

Whatever happened to Thomas Nietsche & Elmar Henne after Mephisto III?

All the best
Mike
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Martin
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2005, 05:54AM »
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Hi Ismenio,

thanks for checking out. Actually I wasn't doing anything there. It seems that the provider has got some probs recently.  >:( Hopefully they get it working soon again.

Five minutes ago I tried it too and got no error message anymore btw.

Best,
Martin
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Ismenio
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2005, 04:42AM »
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Welcome back Martin 
I know (sadly) what it means to be that busy.
Next time I update the site I'll add a link to your page.
Wow, you only have top, VIP computers there 

Now, when I tried to click on the pictures I got the error below:

FEHLER 404
Die gewünschte Internet-Seite ist nicht erreichbar. Überprüfen Sie bitte die Adresse oder versuchen
Sie es später noch einmal.


Are you updating it or was it just me?

Regards,

Ismenio
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Martin
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2005, 01:36AM »
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Hi Ismenio, hi Tom, hi Mike,

yes all is well, thank you. Haven't had much time for chess computers recently, therefore my absence also here. But I'll always come back... 

The scarce time I had I devoted to taking some pics of my humble schachcomputer park:

http://home.arcor.de/mars-chess/

It's a sort of virtual glass cabinet - mostly pics and maybe, one day, a couple of games and links but not more. This weekend I intend to add my R30 pics to it first (I think a link to Ismenios R30 page would be appropriate too if I start including a link list...) 

Anyway, the Mephisto played quite well against Fruit, I think. Of course everything was on 5s/move, so he could not find those mates in 2 or 3 but 24...a5!! shows that even that old guy not only knows the pawn square rule but can apply it when there are other pieces on board! I found this extremely surprising.

Not to imagine what Nietsche/Henne could have done with a faster processor.... 

Mephisto III Regards,
Martin
« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 01:49AM by Martin » Report to moderator Logged
Ismenio
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2005, 05:20PM »
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I have no words! But I found this comic book which can kind of express how I feel!

Ismenio


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Overtom
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2005, 05:13PM »
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Chris, Martin, Mike,

Some really wonderful games! The progress made in chess computing is clearly demonstrated in the difference between Compuchess and Mephisto (and  of course Resurrection and Portorose)!

Seeing the game against Super System III (what a pretentious name!), I can imagine that Dutch grandmaster Donner felt an urge to remark he had never played against such a poor opponent as the computer. " Even his four-year-old niece played better." Donner's remark was somewhat exaggerated considering the fact that he played against an opponent with an ELO of more than 2000. After all, his niece was not named Polgar

But one thing is clear: in thirty years' time, both hardware and software have become so much better that Donner may have been a good judge of chess positions, but there's no doubt he misjudged the potential of computers.

But it's definitely more than just hardware: many of the computers that enter the Overtom collection don't have an official ELO-rating. I use an older version of Fritz to gauge the strength of many of these computers. I pit them against Fritz at 1 ply (so it does not have to rely on its superior hardware). Chess computers for beginners and weak occasional players are usually mated by 1-ply-Fritz in some twenty moves. Even some 16K programs sometimes do not manage to beat 1-ply Fritz.

But for games like the ones presented here, you can wake me up in the middle of the night

Best regards,

tom
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Mike Watters
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2005, 03:12PM »
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Hi Chris - I will have to work on that one. 

Hallo Martin. I hope you are very well. We have kept your Resurrection thread warm for you.

That is a very amusing game. It is amazing that Mephisto III should miss all those Mate in 3 chances and then the Mates in 2. What would it have done if it had run out of pawns to push. Is this the result of taking selective searching too far?

All the best
Mike
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Martin
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2005, 02:15PM »
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Hi Mike, hi Chris,

tried that too and it worked. But the weakest chess computer I have is Mephisto III...

[Event "Test"]
[Site "Essen"]
[Date "2005.11.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Resurrection Fruit '05"]
[Black "Mephisto III"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/3QK3 w kq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "94"]

1. Kf1 e5 2. e3 d5 3. d4 Nc6 4. dxe5 Nxe5 5. Qd4 f6 6. Qc3 Nh6 7. Qb3 Nhg4 8.
h3 Nh6 9. a3 Nf5 10. g4 Nh4 11. Qb5+ c6 12. Qb3 Bc5 13. a4 O-O 14. Qc3 Bd6 15.
f4 Nef3 16. b3 Be6 17. a5 Bf7 18. a6 Nh2+ 19. Kf2 bxa6 20. Kg3 N2f3 21. Kf2 Qb6
22. b4 Bxf4 23. Qc5 Qxc5 24. bxc5 a5 25. Ke2 a4 26. Kd1 a3 27. c3 a2 28. exf4
a1=Q+ 29. Kc2 Qa4+ 30. Kc1 Qxf4+ 31. Kb2 Qh2+ 32. Ka3 Qxh3 33. g5 fxg5 34. Ka4
g4 35. Ka3 g3 36. Ka2 g2 37. Kb2 g1=Q 38. Ka3 Qxc5+ 39. Kb2 g5 40. Kc2 g4 41.
Kb2 g3 42. Kc2 g2 43. Kb3 g1=Q 44. Kc2 a5 45. Kb2 a4 46. Kc2 a3 47.
Kb3 Qb1# 0-1

Watch the idea 25... a4!! (two exclamation marks because you see here endgame knowledge at work - obviously no computation power). 

Best,
Martin
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Chris
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Re:Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2005, 01:59PM »
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Hi Mike, 

Thanks for this interesting post. I've yet to play through the game but your post reminded me of the following game published in Selective Search:

3 mins per move: Meph Portorose (less Queen) takes on the old Super System III (includes White's evaluation!)

(please excuse the poor formatting!)


White, PORT0ROSE 68000 (without Queen) v. Black, SUPER SYSTEM III

1 Nf3    (-887) d5     
2 Nc3    (-887) Qd6   
3 e4    (-866) dxe   
4 Nxe4    ( 869) Qd5   
5 d3    ( 869) Nf6   
6 Nc3    (-851) Qc5   
7 d4    (-827) Qd6   
8 Be3    (-845) Bf5   
9.0 0 0 (-851) Ng4           
10 d5    (-842) Nxe3   
11 fxe3    (-863) Nd7   
12 Nh4    (-869) Bg4   
13 Rd4    (-857) Ne5   
14 Bb5+    (-860) Kd8   
15 h3    (-848) Bd7   
16 Bxd7    (-866) Kxd7   
17 Nf5    (-839) Qa6   
18 e4    (-851) Kc8   
19 Ra4  (-836  Qb6
20 Rf1    (-833) h5
21 Ra3     (-827) g5
22 Rb3    (-806) Qc5
23 Rb5    (-478) Qc4
24 Ne3    (-466) Qd4
25 Nf5    (-454) Nd3+
26 cxd3    (-472) Qxd3
27 Rf3  (-175) Qc4
28 b3    (-196) Qxb5
29 Nxb5    (-221) e6
30 Nd4    (-212) exd5
31 Rxf7    (-215) dxe4
32 Nxc7    (-148)  Ba3+
33 Kc2    (-093)  Rb8
34 Nb5    (+033)  Bb4
35 a3    (+054)  Ba5
36 Nd6+    (MT 2)

1-0!


Test for Mike, in which edition of SS was this game published - should be easy as you've recently trawled through them all! 

Best wishes


Chris
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Mike Watters
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Resurrection v Compuchess I - Draw !!
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2005, 02:20AM »
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Hi All

Shock result  !!

Yesterday I was messing about trying out Resurrection and at the same time reminding myself what some of the oldest machines were like to use in comparison.

Actually I was seeing if I could manufacture a win by the oldies against Resurrection by some sneaky handicapping. There has been some talk about Resurrection Fruit 2005 being too strong to play against other dedicated machines and I thought I might bring it down to size, just once.  Sorry Ruud. 

I soon realised that handicapping could not work with the CC1 and CC3. They can't play white, nor can you set up a position on them. You realise just how far chess computers have come when you try to play a game with these old beauties. Finishing a legal game is an exercise in keyboard accuracy and patience.

Next I tried a CC7. Amusing to beat one of the worlds more exclusive chess computers with a bog standard one which sold in 100s of thousands and can be picked up now for a few dollars. Setting up a position on a CC7 is awkward at first, but you soon get used to it. Unfortunately, with the handicapping arrangements I had in mind, the CC7 was too strong.

So it came down to the Compuchess I to give Resurrection a "sensible" game. Compuchess was the third chess computer after the CC1 and CC3 to be released. Perhaps news of its progress was the reason that Fidelity rushed out the CC1 in such a bungled form. You can set up a position on a Compuchess. So it took on Resurrection Ruffian 2.1 on it's Level 2 versus 5 secs per move :-

[Event "Handicap"]
[Site "Milton Keynes"]
[Date "2005.11.10"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Resurrection Ruffian 2.1"]
[Black "Compuchess I"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/3QK3 w kq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "55"]

1. c4 e5 2. Qc2 Bb4 3. a3 Ba5 4. b4 Bb6 5. c5 Nf6 6. Qa4 O-O 7. cxb6 cxb6 8.
Qc2 Ng4 9. h3 Nh2 10. Qc3 d6 11. Qg3 d5 12. Qxe5 Nf1 13. Kxf1 d4 14. Qg3 h6 15.
Qf4 b5 16. Qe5 a6 17. d3 b6 18. Qf4 h5 19. Qe5 h4 20. Qf4 g5 21. Qe4 Ra7 22.
Kg1 Qd7 23. Qe5 Bb7 24. Qxg5+ Kh8 25. Qh6+ Kg8 26. Qg5+ Kh8 27. Qh6+ Kg8 28.
Qg5+ 1/2-1/2

Those who bother to go through the game may notice that Resurrection did not move it's rooks, knights or bishops.

Some issues :-

1. The reason that Compuchess played Ruffian rather than Fruit, was that Fruit 2005 steadfastly refused to play a move after setting up the position. It seemed to be calculating but only the flashing 'F' appeared and it could not be induced to do anything else. It would be interesting to know if others have this problem.
2. Ruffian 2.1 (X) crashed on delivering checkmate, twice. The only option was to switch Resurrection off and on again.
3. Ruffian 2.1 does not seem to flag up 3-fold repetition and is happy to play on, indefinitely?

Mike



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