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   Author  Topic: Are the Lights Spirits?  (Read 5940 times)
Charles
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2006, 02:03:33 PM »
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Obviously you (Charles) do not believe it God either

Either you have missed the point of the discussion here, or you are trying to divert the debate to a new topic with this red herring non sequitur.  There is nothing in my arguments on the issue that would enable you to conclude that I do not (or do) believe in God.  We have not been debating the science versus religion topic.  While that has been discussed many times from many points of view on this board (I recommend that you read the past threads), it is not a useful platform for evaluating the BML as a plasma phenomenon. None the less, since you brought it up it is possible that my view on the nature of God the Prime Authority managing the Grand Scheme of the multiverse is more complex than the traditional views espoused by most.  And this is probably because my view of the nature of the multiverse is more complex than that of many others.

If, by your comment, you are trying to redirect the discussion to a debate of which has better answers, science or religion?, you are wasting your time.  It is a meaningless question, comparable to If God is really omnipotent, is it possible that he could create a rock so heavy that even he couldnt lift it?  Those kinds of questions go nowhere.

Science and religion are both value systems, but they use completely different methods for validating their knowledge.  Science uses the scientific method observe a problem, ask a question, create a hypothesis as a possible answer, collect data to test the hypothesis, draw a conclusion about the truth of the hypothesis, add the facts to the knowledge base, repeat the process over with new hypotheses.

Religion validates its knowledge by faith.  Religious faith does not require evidence, proof, or testing.  One believes a religious doctrine because one chooses to believe it.  One can believe it in spite of factual evidence that is directly contrary to that belief.  That is what faith is all about no questions asked, take it or leave it.

People who try to make science and religion battle each other to see which wins are in for a frustrating time of it.  Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God or any issues of faith in things of the supernatural.  Secular humanists, be they atheists or agnostics, who use the bogus argument science has found no evidence that God exists, so there must be no God do not understand the scientific method.  God may or may not exist, but neither science nor religion can prove it or disprove it.  One takes one position on faith.

Likewise, religion cannot use its faith-based system to disprove scientific facts.  Equally bogus is the Creationists argument God wrote the Bible.  The Bible is the ultimate truth.  The Bible says nothing about dinosaurs, so there were never any dinosaurs.  They are all fakes.  Science has lied.

The question of the BML still remains.  Which is the most plausible hypothesis for the explanation ?  The only testable one is one that says it is a natural phenomenon perhaps electromagnetic plasma.  They could be spirits, fairies, or sparks from the fingertips of God.  One could believe those on faith, but they could never be proven true of false.
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nik347mhz
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2006, 03:11:25 PM »
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Whether you believe in God or not is the least of my interests or for that matter the comparing of religion and science as value systems. I mearly put in the suggestion that the BML may be similar to the Northern and Southern lights in keeping with the topic
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Charles
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2006, 06:40:34 PM »
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Whether you believe in God or not is the least of my interests

My response was to the post prior to yours.

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I mearly put in the suggestion that the BML may be similar to the Northern and Southern lights

The auroras are produced by high-energy particles from the solar wind (mostly electrons) that are trapped in the Earths magnetosphere.  These particles spiral back and forth along the magnetic field lines between the poles.  When they impact the upper atmosphere, they cause the thin gas to fluoresce, giving off light.  While the effects are electromagnetic, they are not quite the same phenomenon as the plasma effects that LEMUR produced in attempting to recreate the BML, which may be more like ball lightning.
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parkviewlodge
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2006, 07:46:54 PM »
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Whoa! Kids!
      I'm sorry I got all this started and then abandoned you all.
Charles ... what is up with you?
      Is this LEMUR site a site for people to share there sightings and fillings and thoughts .... why are you attacking folks that are talking about how they see it and fill it.  Why are you so angry about how yonahmtn fills about one of the mysterys of these mountains. This is a free site we all have a say!
      But I am very curious..... why are you Angry about how we fill. Why are you taking our quotes and filling you need to say something about them.
      Your not from around here are you! Have you ever been here at the Linville Gorge... 2nd to the Grand Canyon in depth? I didn't think so. If you were you wouldn't be so angry about the wonderful mystery right here in our back door.  Us locals fill blessed to  share in the mystery of the lights. Plasma, UFO's, Spirits it really doesn't matter. It is the Romance of something you can't explain. And today it can't be explained. Some say Plasma... some say UFO .... we all say mystery. An that is the way it is.

I am one of the people that has seen the LIGHTS. Up close and personal. And there are many of us. 

I am NOT going to get in a 'dual of words' with you. You don't know us..... you don't know our mountains.....and you don't know about our folklore and history.  And you don't have a clue about what we are talking about.

Yonahmtn email me ... we are doing a big experiment at Wisemans View Aug. 21 with the LEMUR guys and the MUFON guys. It involves hikers and walkie talkies and scientist from PA and fire. Dinner  on my deck.

Cindy

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Charles
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2006, 08:03:49 AM »
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Is this LEMUR site a site for people to share there sightings and fillings and thoughts ....

Yes, as well as for sharing information, facts, questions, different opinions, scientific  knowledge, and alternate hypotheses

Quote:
why are you attacking folks that are talking about how they see it and fill it.  Why are you so angry why are you Angry about how we fill you wouldn't be so angry

Do you believe that anyone who expresses a different opinion or alternate theory from yours only does so motivated by anger ?  If so, you must find discussion boards like this very hostile, frustrating places.  But nothing that I have posted had any aspect of anger in it.

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Why are you taking our quotes and filling you need to say something about them.

Thats what people do who take part in discussion boards.

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Your not from around here are you!

You mean only locals have the right to take part in the discussion on this board ?  Thats exclusionary and contrary to the purpose expressed on the board intro isnt it ?

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you don't know our mountains.....and you don't know about our folklore and history.  And you don't have a clue about what we are talking about.

Then you obviously havent read all of my posts in the threads on this topic.
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parkviewlodge
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2006, 07:44:34 PM »
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Hey Guys,

We had our outing last night at Wisemans View and Table Rock. It was so much fun and a huge success. We had 5 hikers climb Table Rock with various light forms. And I think there were 8 of us at Wisemans View. We all had walkie talkies.

We all started the evening here on my deck with dinner. We had a pretty interesting group. MUFON folks, LEMUR folks, Physicist from PA., and locals.

The weather reports were not so good. Thunder storms! And you really don't want hikers on Table Rock in the dark in a thunder storm. Our friend Rev. Don Cooper asked our hikers for a  vote to continue the experiment.  And all 5 said 'Its a go'. We had a beautiful weather night at Table Rock and at Wisemans View.  Thank God!

What we discovered and keep in mind we are in full summer so there would be a lot of tree coverage. Most of this light experiment was done at the north tip of Table Rock where there is no tree coverage. We will need to reexperiment in the parking area after the fall.
  1st is you can not see a lighter from either point with even binoculars.
  2nd mag lights can only be seen with binoculars not naked eye.
  3rd our big lantern lights are seen from either side very well.
  4th you can't see any lights from the parking area at Table Rock.
  5th nor can you see any lights from the sea to mtn trail. Which intersects with the Table Rock trail.
  6th for most of the hike we had to ask the hikers to shine there lights at us. We could not see there lights unless they held there big lights over there heads at us. Which is interesting. We would have to radio the hikers to stop and signal us so we could map them on our map.
  Now for the really fun stuff. I got a very excited call from Micah on table rock on the walkie talkie about the big red ball coming south on the river at us. Coming fast. And then another. We at Wisemans View couldn't see it because first we are watching our friends at Table Rock and second the straight drop off of the land doesn't give us a view of the Linville River north.

Now at this point we have our buddies on the north tip of Table Rock. And we are seeing a big light flashing on the south tip of Table Rock. They did not see that light but we did and after all our  light testing. It was a big light. We know there were no other hikers on Table Rock .
  And then we had a 3 Roman Candle show on top of the Chimneys. Big lights that shot straight up in the air and this was  after our hikers headed back to us at Wisemans View.

We will probably repeat this experment after all our leaves are down. Just so we know where the lights are. Hikers and campers.

WE had a great evening ...even with all these different personalities. And different thoughts. It was a true bonding of different engeries. A mutual respect. And a true friendship.

Cindy
 
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nik347mhz
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #26 on: September 5, 2006, 05:03:46 PM »
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It would be interesting to ride a hot air balloon right across the area on an active night. Any takers. I'd love to see them myself
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parkviewlodge
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #27 on: September 6, 2006, 07:19:14 PM »
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    Your right nik347. Would it not be amazing to be in  a hot air ballon in the Linville Gorge with the lights giving us there show!  It would be hard to arrange that happening.....but never say never! 
  We are planning another outing at Wisemans View this friday.  And this week is the one year anniversary of some of the best LIGHTS I ever saw. And the weekend looks like the weather will be perfect.  Wish us luck! And I will post you all about what we see.

Cindy
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yonahmtn253
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #28 on: September 7, 2006, 04:10:42 PM »
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Cindy and Lemur...PLEASE let us know what happens tomorrow!

I still stand firm that the BMLs are spirits! I have become interested in energy fields. I believe we all have energy field and they can be seen. Are they spirits? Well I think some spirits live on as energy. NOW, doesn't that make sense?!!!!

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parkviewlodge
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #29 on: September 7, 2006, 07:07:32 PM »
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  Yonahmtn it makes sense to me.  The spirit idea has been my vote for sometime now.  But I am  open minded. Lets see what pans out.
  Tomorrow night will be fun. Hanging out with  Micah from Lemur and Reverend Cooper with Mufon. And of course local folks and a few cousins and even a few new friends I have met here on this site.
  WE will go out to Wisemans View just before dark, and Just hang out. Some bring chairs, some of us sit up on the ledge of the balconey. Some on the steps. And we talk and we watch. 
  Everyone is gathered around telling stories.  Funny stories and sad. But talking and listening and watching and waiting. 

Cindy
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parkviewlodge
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2006, 06:07:08 PM »
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    Well we had a pretty interesting night friday at Wisemans View! The weather was an issue for some folks early on. But by the evening it was a beautiful  full moon night. Not to cold. We had a great turn out. Maybe 15 that I knew.  Hotel regular guests and locals.
    We were not disappointed.  As we arrived at maybe 8:15 there was a lot of lights on Table Rock. There was some light activity on Sitting Bear Mountain. Shorly there after a big light appeared on little Table Rock and stayed for the 2 1/2 hours we were there.  After our experiment a couple weeks ago.  Camper we thought. We also saw a lot of lights at the Chimneys on and off. We keep looking but always went back to watch the lights at Table Rock. 
    WE watched the big light with naked eye and binoculars... it seemed to be changing colors and dividing and spliting and then merging again. Hopping and skipping and then coming back together.  After an hour of this a big light appeared at the Chimneys not white but red/ orange and stayed..... 45 minitues. (still shinning when we left at 11:10)
    Now here is the interesting thing. One of our group had a camera with a big zoom. And you are not going to believe what we saw. These lights are at least 1 1/4 and 2 miles away from us at Wisemans. The digital camera shows what looks like a huge bon fire on top of the trees. In both locations. Pulsing ball of fire. Red, orange, blue, green, yellow.... but pulsing.

      I know my friends here at Lemur are cheering.... plasma gas! And you know I had that thought too..... but guys how can we explain a 2 1/2 and a 45 minute light/ fire show to gas. How could a gas sustain itself for all those hours. Now just a reminder.... I walked away from these lights at 11:10 pm (busy morning here at the Lodge)
  Heaven knows how much longer the lights did there thing.

  And this is the beauty of what we are talking about here on the Lemur site...... it is all a mystery. Lots of different ideas. And just when you think you know what your looking at.... it changes. What an amazing mystery.... and I am blessed to be here .... right here. And check back with me in 20 years and I'm sure I will have a different thought about it. Maybe be a little closer to understanding the mystery of it all.

Cindy
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yonahmtn253
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2006, 06:28:21 AM »
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Has anyone noticed that this post has gotten the MOST views on this discussion board? I believe that reactions speaks loud and clear that some people do believe that the lights may be of a spiritual nature. I respect everyone's opinion on what it is I think it is much like faith, a personal thing.
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Charles
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2006, 07:26:13 PM »
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Has anyone noticed that this post has gotten the MOST views on this discussion board?

If you scroll back through the older posts on the Paranormal Discussion Board, you will notice that any controversial topic generated thousands of reads.  Most people just like the excitement of believing unbelievable things.

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I believe that reactions speaks loud and clear that some people do believe that the lights may be of a spiritual nature.

I dont doubt this.  But one has to be careful about reading anything into these kinds of bandwagon opinionsbeyond the fact that lots of people believe them.

For example, there are an estimated 15 million people in the U.S. who believe that the Holocaust never happened that the whole story is just a hoax perpetrated by those desiring to vilify Hitler and discredit all the wonderful things Hitler did to improve Germany and its economy.  A comparable number believe that man has never set foot on the Moon the film was a PR hoax shot on a movie studio at Area 51.  And the list of such beliefs grows longer every day.  What meaning should we read into such beliefs ?

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I think it is much like faith, a personal thing.

Yes, thats true.  And like most issues of faith, it does not require proof or even supporting evidence only the desire to believe.  Thats how religion differs from science.  And like other issues of faith, simply believing does not provide any evidence to support any other idea as being true.  So believing that creation as described in Genesis is the literal truth does not logically allow one to deny the existence of dinosaurs in the fossil record and decry that they are hoaxes.  Faith cant wish away scientific facts.
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yonahmtn253
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2006, 05:49:52 AM »
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Charles,

What is your problem? You seem to just want to attack and degrade anyone's point of view. Have you got nothing better to do than to use this form of abuse?!!!

AND..oh please pull all my @#$@$# quotes out and attack them out of this post...I BEG YOU!!!
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Charles
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2006, 05:58:02 PM »
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yonahmtn253 said:
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What is your problem?

It appears that you have the problem.  For someone who voluntarily joined a discussion board devoted to debate on the meaning and origin of paranormal phenomena, you are overly defensive when it come to anyone expressing opinions or facts that are contrary to your views.  Anger and hostility are defense mechanisms that suggest one does not have a logical argument in response to a contrary opinion.

What exactly was your point in your statement that some people believe that the BML have a spiritual nature ?  What message were you trying to send us ?  I did not disagree with your statement, but only qualified it to reflect what reasonable people know to be true that even if a million or 15 million people believe something, it does not make their belief fact.

Its puzzling why that observation would evoke anger from youunless you would prefer that such clarification was not made at all to the other people reading the thread.  But the Bandwagon argument if a million people believe it, then it must be true is one of the common logical fallacies in discussions of the paranormal.  Sloppy thinking like that interferes with the quest for understanding about paranormal phenomena from those who are approaching the subject from the scientific perspective.
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yonahmtn253
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2006, 11:01:52 AM »
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I am not the angry or hostile one. You seem to be the one who is way off in left field causing people to get upset. Other people seem to carry on very friendly debates, conversations,etc on this board. You attack everyone with your scientific logic about everything.

I enjoy a good debate as well as the next person but you take things and turn them into something they are not.

I believe in the BMLs. I don't even think your bizarre answers and quotes even belong on this board.

Yes, Charles..you and I are finished debating!
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2006, 02:38:03 PM »
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There have been times when I thought I sensed an intelligence in the lights, but that may be my own wishful thinking. I truely believe they are a natural phenomena. Something with which I find a lot of fascination and awe, just like many things in this world which are hard to explain but make you feel privileged to see and experience. Like watching the Aurora Borealis. We were traveling across Canada on a train when I was 15. We reached Winnepeg around 1:00 in the morning ( I think this was in June 1971) and my brother and I climbed up into a sight seeing car with a glass roof and watched the Northern Lights. We were mesmerized. He was 13 and full of knowledge about what it was and how the lights were formed. (Truely, he was and is very intelligent) I just thought they were beautiful. The BML remind me of that feeling every time I see them. We're going back in a few weeks. A cool night in the Fall is always the best time.
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Charles
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2006, 06:12:08 PM »
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yonahmtn253 said:
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Have you got nothing better to do than to use this form of abuse?!!!

please pull all my @#$@$# quotes out and attack them out of this post...I BEG YOU!!!

I am not the angry or hostile one.

could have fooled mewhy not a single smiley face to be seen anywhere

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you take things and turn them into something they are not.

what specifically are you referring to ?

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I believe in the BMLs.

Me too Ive seen them.

Quote:
I don't even think your bizarre answers and quotes even belong on this board.

So much for the theory that believers in the paranormal are open-minded.  Wanting to ban opinions that you dont agree with is a path to the truth you think ?

dscher said
Quote:
Something with which I find a lot of fascination and awe, just like many things in this world which are hard to explain but make you feel privileged to see and experience. Like watching the Aurora Borealis.

Yes.  Even understanding the physics behind things does not diminish for me the awe-inspiring effects of things like the auroras or St. Elmos Fire glimmering around high voltage lines on a cold winter night or the amazing electromagnetic effects of the plasma spheres in the novelty stores or laser projected holograms floating in 3-D space.  No matter how many times one sees a beam of white light entering a prism split into a spectrum of colors, the effect is still stunning.  All of these things seem magical, which is why physics is such a great class to teach.

The world is filled with wonderful things that can stimulate a feeling of spiritual, mystical emotions, even if those things are not really spiritual or mystical or supernatural in nature.  One need not assign a supernatural meaning to things to be inspired or moved by them.  Nature itself is inspiring enough.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 06:13:20 PM by Charles » Logged

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dscher
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2006, 02:26:58 PM »
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My sanctuary is the great outdoors and that is where I feel my Higher Power. To me there's nothing like standing on a mountain top after I've expended alot of energy getting there. Breathing FRESH air, watching eagles fly, watching the BML, standing on top of Table Rock whether it's in daylight or at night, looking at stars - these are all awe inspiring and have some spiritual recognition and thankfulness to God that I am a part of it all. I wish I could say I wake up every day and am glad to be here. Some days more than others. But for the most part, I'm just damn glad to be alive and able to think and feel.
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Re:Are the Lights Spirits?
« Reply #39 on: October 1, 2006, 03:09:13 PM »
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There are so many things in this world that are inconclusive as to whether or not they are supernatural or not and judging by the level of interest in the Lights and the diversity of people hyped about them, I would say that there is certainly something very interesting happening there. The number of people that said they felt they were 'followed' at times could be looked at and followed up on. It's a very big universe out there and with the amount of intelligence and creativity ascribed to humanity as well as accomplishments, I think it would be premature and narrow minded to assume that this plane of existance is all there is and that there is nothing else and that goes for the lights as well. Nope science can't go there because what they can't 'document' they won't acknowledge when it doesn't 'fit' into 'Their' model of the world and that's okay. We just keep investigating and we are the ones that discover. We are the ones that go the miles (Joshua does too   and if Edison had listened to his assistant that thought it was insane to keep trying to make the light bulb work and to GIVE UP . . . the world would be in darkness. For every person that says it doesn't exist, there are 20 people discovering it. Keep investigating those lights. There is something very interesting about them and I wonder what we would get with a few serious evp sessions during a viewing . . . actually a Lot of evp sessions.          Nik
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